In-House vs Outsourced Podcast Production: Which Is Right for Your B2B Company?
TL;DR
For most B2B companies, podcast success has far less to do with audio quality and far more to do with strategy, consistency, and relationships. In-house production offers control and lower surface-level costs but often fails due to time drain and lack of ROI strategy. Outsourced podcast production costs more upfront—but when done strategically, it saves time, drives referrals, and turns conversations into long-term business development assets.
The real question isn’t “Can we afford to outsource?”
It’s “Can we afford not to?”
Executive Summary
Podcasting has entered a new era for B2B companies. In 2025, podcasts are no longer experimental marketing channels—they are relationship engines, authority builders, and pipeline accelerators when executed correctly.
According to Edison Research’s Infinite Dial 2025, 73% of Americans have consumed a podcast, 55% listen monthly, and 35% listen weekly—the highest adoption levels ever recorded. Podcasting has firmly crossed from “emerging” to “mainstream,” including among senior decision-makers.
Yet most B2B podcasts fail.
Not because the hosts lack expertise—but because companies underestimate the operational burden and overestimate the value of simply “publishing content.”
At Rise25, after more than 20 years in podcasting and thousands of interviews, we’ve seen a consistent pattern:
The most successful B2B podcasts treat podcasting as business development, not content marketing.
This article breaks down the real differences between in-house and outsourced podcast production, the hidden costs most teams miss, and a practical framework to decide which approach is right for your business.
Key Takeaways
- Podcast adoption is at an all-time high, but most B2B podcasts still fail due to lack of strategy and consistency
- In-house podcast production often costs more in time and opportunity than companies expect
- Outsourced production works best when paired with a clear B2B podcast strategy—not just editing
- The biggest ROI driver in B2B podcasting is who you interview and how you follow up—not downloads
- One weekly conversation can compound into referrals, partnerships, and deals for years
- When done correctly, a podcast can actually save time by replacing inefficient networking
Table of Contents
1. Why This Decision Matters More Than You Think
1.1 The B2B Podcast Landscape in 2025
Podcast consumption continues to surge—especially among business audiences.
Data from Edison Research shows that YouTube is now the most-used podcast platform for weekly listeners, surpassing Spotify and Apple Podcasts. This matters because modern B2B podcasts increasingly function as multi-channel assets, not just audio files.
Additional research shows that:
- 59% of business decision-makers listen to podcasts during work hours
- 73% of B2B buyers prefer thought leadership content over traditional marketing
Podcasting aligns perfectly with how B2B trust is built today: long-form, on-demand, relationship-driven content.
1.2 The Hidden Cost of Getting It Wrong
Despite rising adoption, most podcasts fail early.
Industry data shows:
- Nearly half of podcasts stop before episode three
- Only 8.53% of podcasts ever reach 50 episodes
- An estimated 80% of B2B podcasts become vanity projects with no measurable ROI
From Rise25’s experience, B2B companies quit for two primary reasons:
- They can’t connect the podcast to revenue. Without a clear ROI strategy, podcasting becomes an expensive branding exercise.
- They get exhausted by production. Editing, publishing, show notes, distribution, guest coordination, and follow-up drain momentum until the podcast quietly disappears.
1.3 Rise25’s Philosophy: A Podcast Is a Business Development Asset, Not a Hobby
At Rise25, we believe relationships come first, content comes second.
The goal of a B2B podcast isn’t downloads—it’s:
- Referrals
- Strategic partnerships
- Shorter sales cycles
- Long-term authority
That philosophy is built directly into our done-for-you podcast production services, where strategy and execution are intentionally paired.
Instead of chasing listeners, we help clients build podcasts around their most important relationships using the Dream 200 framework—a systematic approach to identifying ideal clients, referral partners, and strategic partners and using the podcast as a door-opener.
When podcasting is treated as business development, it stops feeling like “one more marketing task” and starts functioning like a scalable growth engine.
2. Defining in-house vs outsourced podcast production (and the hybrid option)
2.1 What in-house podcast production typically includes
In-house usually means your team owns most (or all) of the following:
- Equipment selection, setup, and maintenance
- Recording operations (remote/local, backups, file management)
- Editing + mixing + mastering
- Show notes, blog posts, and SEO formatting
- Uploading to a host, RSS management, and platform distribution
- Guest outreach, scheduling, reminders, prep docs
- Promotion: clips, posts, newsletter blurbs, YouTube uploads
2.2 What outsourced podcast production services typically include
Outsourcing ranges from basic to strategic:
- Basic: editing + delivery of audio files
- Full-service: editing + publishing + blog posts + distribution
- Strategic (what most B2B companies actually need):
- Production + publishing + SEO episode pages
- Guest strategy (Dream 200)
- Outreach support
- Follow-up systems and accountability
- Optional video workflows (YouTube + clips)
2.3 Hybrid models: a third option (with a warning)
Hybrid can be smart if roles are explicit. Examples:
- Keep hosting + interviewing in-house; outsource editing + publishing
- Keep strategy in-house; outsource production and content packaging
The most common hybrid failure: teams outsource editing…but no one owns guest strategy or follow-up, so the show sounds great and produces zero pipeline.
3. The core goal of a B2B podcast (before you compare options)
3.1 Why most B2B podcasts fail: no ROI strategy
A B2B podcast fails when it’s treated like “content for content’s sake.”
Common failure patterns:
- Focusing on downloads instead of named-account outcomes
- Publishing inconsistently
- Interviewing random guests with no strategic intent
- No follow-up motion after the episode goes live
If you want ROI, you need a strategy designed for how B2B buyers actually decide. Studies show B2B buyers value credible thought leadership—when it’s consistent and relevant. This is why the best B2B podcasts look more like a relationship program than a media play.
3.2 Rise25’s Dream 200 framework: relationships first
The Dream 200 is your list of:
- Ideal clients
- Referral partners
- Strategic partners
- Ecosystem influencers
A B2B podcast becomes a reason to reach out and say:
“I’d love to feature you, highlight your expertise, and promote what you’re building.”
That’s fundamentally different from a sales pitch—and it gets doors opened that cold outreach can’t.
3.3 Four business outcomes a B2B podcast should drive
A high-performing B2B podcast should reliably produce:
- Referrals
- Conservative math: publish ~40 episodes/year and if only 10% of guests/relationships generate a referral, that’s ~4 new clients in year one (and the compounding in year two is the real payoff).
- Strategic partnerships
- Shorter sales cycles
- Podcast content is an unfair advantage in outbound and nurture: “We covered this exact issue with ___.”
- Long-term SEO + authority assets
- Episode pages can rank for niche, high-intent searches—especially when they’re structured for SEO (headings, summaries, key takeaways, internal links, and transcript-derived long-form content).
4. In-House Podcast Production: Pros and Cons
In-house podcast production is often the default choice for B2B companies starting out. It feels faster, cheaper, and more controllable. In some situations, it can work well. But for many teams, the hidden tradeoffs don’t show up until months later—when momentum slows or the podcast quietly stalls.
4.1 Advantages of In-House Podcast Production
- Full control over content and brand voice
- Lower visible cash costs
- Tight integration with internal teams
- Deep institutional knowledge
4.2 Disadvantages of In-House Podcast Production
- Significant time drain on founders and senior leaders
- Steep learning curve
- Inconsistent publishing schedules
- Production quality doesn’t equal ROI
- Guest booking becomes a hidden operational burden
5. Outsourced Podcast Production: Pros and Cons
Outsourced podcast production is often viewed as a “next stage” option—but for many B2B companies, it’s actually the fastest path to consistency, clarity, and ROI. The key distinction isn’t whether you outsource, but what you outsource and why.
5.1 Advantages of Outsourcing Podcast Production
- Done-for-you execution and consistency
- Access to real podcasting experience
- Strategic guidance beyond editing
- Faster time to launch
- Built-in accountability
5.2 Disadvantages of Outsourced Podcast Production
- Higher upfront investment
- Less day-to-day control
- Risk of hiring a vendor instead of a strategic partner
- Onboarding and communication requirements
6. The Real Cost Comparison: In-House vs Outsourced Podcast Production
When B2B leaders compare in-house versus outsourced podcast production, they usually focus on direct costs. That’s understandable—but incomplete.
The biggest costs of podcasting are often invisible: time, opportunity cost, and lost momentum.
6.1 Direct cost breakdown (typical ranges)
| Cost Category | In-house | Budget Outsourced | Strategic Outsourced |
| Equipment (one-time) | $500–$2,500 | — | — |
| Hosting/software | $50–$150/mo | Often included | Included |
| Editing | Internal labor | $100–$500/ep | Included |
| SEO episode pages | Internal labor | Often excluded | Included |
| Guest booking/outreach | Internal labor | Rarely included | Sometimes included |
| Strategy + systems | Usually none | None | Core value |
6.2 Time Costs: What Your Team Is Really Spending
Per episode, many teams end up with a workload like:
- Recording: 30–60 minutes
- Editing: 2–6 hours
- Show notes/SEO page: 1–2 hours
- Guest outreach + scheduling: 5–15+ hours per guest
- Platform management: 1–2 hours/week
Weekly publishing can quietly become 10–25+ hours/week beyond the recording.
6.3 Opportunity Cost for Founders and Revenue-Generating Leaders
Here’s the calculation most companies never make:
If a founder or senior leader values their time at $300 per hour and spends just 8 hours per episode managing podcast production, that’s $2,400 in opportunity cost per episode. For a weekly show, that’s nearly $10,000 per month in leadership time—before guest outreach or follow-up is even considered.
Guest booking alone can consume 100–200 hours per month when handled internally. With cold outreach converting at roughly 1–10%, teams may need to contact hundreds of prospects to secure a handful of guests. This is why Rise25 often says something counterintuitive:
A podcast actually saves you massive amounts of time—when done right.
Instead of attending networking events, scheduling exploratory calls, or sending cold outreach, you spend your time in pre-qualified conversations with people you’ve intentionally selected.
6.4 Why “Cheaper” Often Costs More in B2B Podcasting
Budget services deliver audio files.
Strategic services deliver relationships.
And relationships are where the B2B ROI lives.
7. Strategy vs Execution: The Biggest Difference Most Companies Miss
Most B2B podcasts fail not because of poor execution, but because they lack strategy.
Clean audio, professional editing, and consistent publishing are important—but they are table stakes. The real difference between podcasts that generate ROI and podcasts that fade away is what happens before and after the episode is recorded.
7.1 Why Production Quality Alone Doesn’t Drive B2B ROI
Professional audio reduces friction, but it doesn’t create pipeline.
Many companies invest in podcast production and are satisfied with how the show sounds. According to research, a large majority of companies with branded podcasts report being “satisfied” with the results. But satisfaction doesn’t equal ROI.
A podcast can sound great and still produce no measurable business outcomes if:
- Guests are chosen randomly
- Interviews aren’t designed to build relationships
- There’s no follow-up system
- Success is measured by downloads instead of deals
This gap between production and pipeline is where most B2B podcasts fall short.
7.2 The Importance of Guest Strategy
The most important question in B2B podcasting is not “How good does the show sound?”
It’s “Who are we talking to?”
The Dream 200 framework flips the traditional podcast model on its head. Instead of broadcasting to an anonymous audience, you intentionally build relationships with the people who can most impact your business.
Research shows that companies using targeted guest strategies often attribute a significant portion of closed deals to podcast-driven relationships. This is why Rise25 embeds guest strategy directly into its B2B podcast strategy—not as an add-on, but as the foundation.
7.3 Interview Structure That Builds Real Relationships
At Rise25, interviews are intentionally structured to deepen relationships, not pitch products.
Effective B2B podcast interviews:
- Make guests look like authorities
- Focus on the guest’s insights, not the host’s offering
- Create peer-level conversations, not sales calls
The interview itself is a gift. You’re offering the guest exposure, credibility, and promotion—before asking for anything in return.
This approach is one reason Rise25 pairs podcast production with SEO-optimized episode blog posts, ensuring guests receive long-term value well beyond the initial conversation.
7.4 Post-Episode Follow-Up Systems
The interview is just the beginning.
Most podcasts publish an episode, share it once on social media, and move on. That’s a missed opportunity.
Effective B2B podcasts use:
- Thoughtful follow-up messages
- Gifting or touchpoint systems
- Introductions that turn conversations into opportunities
Research shows that most abandoned podcasts never formally close or communicate with listeners—revealing a lack of long-term commitment from the start.
Rise25 builds follow-up systems that assume podcasting is a multi-year relationship play, not a short-term campaign.
8. When In-House Podcast Production Makes Sense
While outsourcing is often the fastest path to consistency and ROI, in-house podcast production can be the right choice in specific scenarios. The key is being honest about your internal capabilities and expectations.
8.1 You Already Have a Dedicated Content or Media Team
In-house production can work when you already employ people whose primary job is content creation—such as video producers, audio editors, or content managers. If your team already understands recording workflows, editing software, and publishing systems, adding a podcast may be a logical extension of existing capabilities rather than a brand-new burden.
8.2 Podcasting Is Not a Core Growth Lever (Yet)
Some companies view podcasting as:
- An experiment
- A brand-building initiative
- A low-pressure content channel
If podcasting is not expected to generate near-term ROI, referrals, or pipeline, producing in-house can be a reasonable way to test the waters. Just be clear: without strategy, most podcasts stay in the “nice branding asset” category rather than becoming a business development engine.
8.3 You Have Time to Learn and Iterate
In-house podcasting requires patience. If your team:
- Has time to learn audio production
- Is comfortable experimenting
- Accepts a slower path to results
Then producing internally may make sense. Many successful podcasts start this way before transitioning to professional support later.
However, research shows that only a small fraction of shows make it past the early learning phase—largely due to time constraints and inconsistent execution.
8.4 You Have Real Podcasting Experience In-House
There’s a big difference between marketing experience and podcasting experience. If someone on your team has:
- Produced 50+ podcast episodes
- Managed guest booking and publishing workflows
- Sustained a show over a full year or more
Then in-house production has a much higher chance of success. Without that experience, teams often underestimate the operational lift required to stay consistent.
Key takeaway
In-house podcast production works best when:
- You already have the skills
- You have the time
- ROI expectations are modest
If any of those are missing, outsourcing usually becomes the more reliable option.
9. When Outsourced Podcast Production Makes Sense
For many B2B companies, outsourcing podcast production isn’t about convenience—it’s about focus. When podcasting is expected to drive real business outcomes, outsourcing often becomes the most efficient and effective option.
9.1 You Want ROI, Referrals, and Relationships—Not Just Downloads
If your goal is business development, not audience building, you need more than audio editing.
Outsourcing makes sense when you want your podcast to:
- Generate referrals
- Build strategic partnerships
- Influence pipeline and deals
This is why Rise25 emphasizes B2B podcast strategy over raw production output. Strategy ensures each episode is aligned with business goals—not just content schedules.
9.2 Your Leadership Team’s Time Is Extremely Valuable
In founder-led and services-based businesses, leadership time is often the most expensive resource. If founders or senior leaders are spending 10–20 hours per week managing podcast production, that time is being pulled away from sales, partnerships, and revenue-generating activities.
Outsourcing podcast production shifts execution to specialists, allowing leaders to focus exclusively on high-value conversations with ideal clients and partners—a core benefit of done-for-you podcast production services.
9.3 You Want Consistency Without Operational Headaches
Consistency is one of the strongest predictors of podcast success. Outsourced teams build publishing schedules, workflows, and accountability into their process. This dramatically reduces the risk of podfade—a phenomenon well documented in podcast burnout studies.
If consistency matters, outsourcing often removes the single biggest failure point.
9.4 You Want Strategic Guidance, Not Just Editing and Posting
Many providers call themselves podcast production agencies but only deliver edited audio files. Outsourcing works best when it includes:
- Guest selection aligned with your Dream 200
- Interview structures designed for relationship building
- Follow-up systems that turn conversations into opportunities
This is the difference between hiring a vendor and partnering with a team that understands B2B podcasting as a business development system.
Key takeaway
Outsourced podcast production makes sense when:
- ROI matters
- Leadership time is scarce
- Consistency is critical
- Strategy matters as much as execution
For many B2B leaders, outsourcing isn’t an expense—it’s a leverage decision.
10. A Practical Decision Framework for B2B Leaders
Choosing between in-house and outsourced podcast production doesn’t have to be complicated. The key is to evaluate your situation honestly across a few critical dimensions.
This framework is designed to help B2B leaders make a clear, confident decision based on reality—not assumptions.
10.1 Five Questions to Ask Before Deciding
Before you choose an approach, ask yourself:
- Who owns strategy?
Guest selection, positioning, follow-up systems, and ROI tracking must belong to someone. If the answer is “we’ll figure it out as we go,” the podcast will lack direction. - Who owns execution?
Recording, editing, publishing, distribution, and promotion require consistent ownership. If execution is scattered across multiple roles, momentum will suffer. - Who ensures consistency and follow-up?
Publishing one episode is easy. Publishing every week—and nurturing relationships afterward—is hard. Without accountability, even well-intentioned podcasts fade. - What is your leadership team’s time really worth?
If founders or senior leaders are spending significant time managing production, the opportunity cost may exceed the price of outsourcing. - What outcomes do you expect, and by when?
“Brand awareness” is vague. “Four new referral partners in year one” is measurable. Clear outcomes determine whether you need strategic support or basic production help.
10.2 The In-House vs Outsourced Scorecard
Rate yourself from 1 to 5 on each factor:
- Available time for podcast operations
- Internal podcasting expertise
- Budget flexibility
- ROI expectations
- Strategic clarity (Dream 200 identified)
Add up your score:
- 5–12: In-house may work, but expect a long learning curve
- 13–19: A hybrid approach may work with very clear ownership
- 20–25: Outsourcing to a strategic partner is likely the best path
This scorecard reflects patterns Rise25 has seen across hundreds of B2B podcasts launched using done-for-you podcast production services.
10.3 Why Most Successful B2B Podcasts Eventually Outsource
Many B2B podcasts start in-house—and that’s okay.
But over time, most successful shows make the same realization:
- Production is a commodity
- Strategy is the differentiator
As expectations grow and opportunity cost becomes clearer, companies often choose to outsource execution so leadership can focus on conversations, partnerships, and revenue.
The fastest-growing podcasts are rarely the ones doing everything themselves. They’re the ones investing in systems, consistency, and long-term strategy.
11. Common Mistakes to Avoid (Regardless of Your Choice)
Whether you produce your podcast in-house or outsource it, the same mistakes tend to derail B2B podcasts. Avoiding these pitfalls is often more important than choosing the “right” production model.
11.1 Starting Without a Clear Guest and Outreach Strategy
Random guests lead to random results.
One of the most common errors is booking whoever says “yes” rather than intentionally selecting guests aligned with business goals. Without a defined guest strategy—such as the Dream 200 framework—podcasts often attract interesting conversations but fail to create meaningful business impact.
11.2 Treating Podcasting Like Content Marketing Instead of Relationship Marketing
Podcasting is not just another content channel.
Content marketing broadcasts information to an audience. Relationship marketing creates one-to-one conversations that build trust over time. B2B podcasts that perform best are designed as relationship engines, a distinction emphasized throughout Rise25’s approach to B2B podcast strategy.
When podcasting is treated purely as content production, it rarely generates referrals or partnerships.
11.3 Focusing on Downloads Instead of Business Outcomes
Downloads feel tangible—but they’re rarely the metric that matters in B2B.
What matters more is:
- How many guests became referral partners
- How many conversations turned into opportunities
- How often the podcast influences sales conversations
11.4 Inconsistent Publishing Schedules
Consistency beats perfection.
Publishing one episode per week means building relationships with 40+ high-caliber people per year. Missing weeks breaks momentum and weakens audience habits.
Podcast burnout and inconsistency are leading causes of failure, as documented in podcast research.
11.5 Underestimating the Long Game
Many B2B leaders expect quick wins from podcasting.
In reality, the biggest results often come after dozens—or even hundreds—of episodes, when trust and relationships have had time to compound. This long-term perspective is a cornerstone of Rise25’s done-for-you podcast production services.
12. Rise25’s Perspective: Building Podcasts for the Long Game
After working with hundreds of B2B companies and producing thousands of podcast episodes, Rise25 has seen a consistent truth:
The podcasts that succeed long-term are the ones built with patience, consistency, and strategy.
Short-term thinking kills podcasts. Long-term thinking turns them into compounding business assets.
12.1 Why Consistency Beats Perfection
Many companies delay launching or publishing because they want everything to be perfect—perfect audio, perfect scripting, perfect production.
That mindset is backwards.
Podcast audiences value authenticity over polish. Over-editing conversations or obsessing over minor imperfections can actually reduce trust. This perspective is supported by broader insights into podcast listener behavior.
Consistency matters far more than perfection:
- Weekly publishing builds listener habits
- Regular conversations deepen relationships
- Momentum compounds over time
A “good enough” episode published consistently will outperform a “perfect” episode that rarely ships.
12.2 The Compound Effect of Weekly Conversations
The math behind podcasting is simple—but powerful.
If you publish one episode per week, you’re having roughly 40 strategic conversations per year. Even a conservative referral rate creates meaningful business impact over time.
Those relationships don’t reset each year—they compound. Guests from year one often become referral partners in year two and beyond.
This is why Rise25 frames podcasts as relationship systems, not content calendars—an approach central to effective B2B podcast strategy.
12.3 What 20+ Years of Podcasting Has Taught Us
Experience removes guesswork.
After decades in podcasting, Rise25 has learned that:
- Strategy matters more than equipment
- Guest selection matters more than audience size
- Follow-up matters more than downloads
The ultimate goal is to build a podcast that you never want to stop doing because you can clearly see the return. This philosophy is embedded in Rise25’s done-for-you podcast production services, where consistency and strategy are built into the process from day one.
13. Final Verdict: Making Your Decision
Summary Comparison Table
| Factor | In-house | Outsourced (strategic) |
| Time burden | High | Low (you focus on interviews) |
| Cash cost | Lower visible | Higher visible |
| Opportunity cost | Often high | Often reduced |
| Consistency | Risky | Systemized |
| Guest strategy | Often ad hoc | Structured (Dream 200) |
| ROI speed | Slower (learning curve) | Faster (repeatable system) |
Bottom line: If your B2B podcast is intended to drive pipeline, referrals, and strategic partnerships, outsourcing tends to win—especially when it comes with strategy and accountability.
14. Next Steps: Get Help Building a Podcast That Drives ROI
If you want a podcast that’s a business development engine—not a content treadmill—your next step is to align:
- Dream 200 targeting
- A consistent publishing machine
- A follow-up system that converts conversations into relationships
That’s the Rise25 approach.
Frequently Asked Questions
How much does it cost to outsource podcast production?
Costs vary widely based on scope. Basic editing can be a few hundred dollars per episode, while full-service strategic production (including SEO episode pages, publishing, and business-development support) can be several thousand per month.
How many hours does it take to produce a podcast episode in-house?
It often ranges from several hours to well over 10 hours per episode once you include editing, publishing, show notes, guest logistics, and promotion.
What’s the failure rate for podcasts?
One commonly cited benchmark is that ~47% of podcasts publish 3 episodes or fewer. Another widely cited benchmark is that only 8.53% reach 50 episodes.
Can I start in-house and switch to outsourced later?
Yes. Many B2B shows start DIY and outsource later—usually once leadership feels the opportunity cost and wants consistency.
What’s the difference between a podcast production vendor and a strategic partner?
A vendor delivers files. A strategic partner helps you build a repeatable system for Dream 200 guests + relationship follow-up + measurable outcomes.
How long does it take to launch a podcast with an outsourced partner?
Many agencies can launch in a matter of weeks depending on readiness (naming, artwork, positioning, and your first recordings).
What ROI can I expect from a B2B podcast?
In B2B, ROI typically comes from relationships: referrals, partnerships, accelerated sales cycles, and authority-building. A conservative model is: ~40 interviews/year × ~10% referral conversion = ~4 clients/year (then compounding in year 2+).
About the Author
John H. Corcoran is Co-Founder of Rise25 and a former White House Writer, speechwriter, attorney, author, and B2B podcasting expert. He is the creator of Smart Business Revolution and host of the Smart Business Revolution podcast. Since 2010, he has interviewed over 1,000+ successful entrepreneurs about how they have used relationships to grow their businesses and careers.
He is the author of 3 books about relationship building and client acquisition, and has been profiled in Forbes and featured in Entrepreneurial You (Harvard Business Review Press), Stand Out (Portfolio) by Dorie Clark, The Connector’s Advantage (Page Two) by Michelle Tillis Lederman, Success Is In Your Sphere (McGraw-Hill Education) by Zvi Band, and The Successful Mistake by Matthew Turner. His writing has appeared in Forbes, Entrepreneur, Huffington Post, Art of Manliness, Lifehacker, Business Insider, and numerous other publications.
Ready to explore how strategic podcast production can accelerate your business development? Schedule a free podcast ROI consultation with John and the Rise25 team to map your Dream 200 targets and design a relationship engineering approach optimized for measurable business outcomes.