Search Interviews:

Jeremy Weisz  4:21  

Hello. So when people ask what TwinEngine does, how do you describe it?

Winnie Hart  4:27  

Well, I mean, the best way to do it is I think back to back to the whole concept of identical twins. I think that, you know, brands come to us and thought leaders come to us to really help them see themselves outside of themselves, to help project back to them what is authentically them. And and Lorrie and I have been doing that for several years. I’m not going to tell you how many. And really we have this unique ability to see ourselves outside of ourselves so that you know, I mean, I know what I look like when I speak I know what I look like yeah, you know, onstage, I know what I sound like, you know, Lorrie will come up to me all the time and say, you know, any, we do not look good in those pants. So I think in a very simple but very structured way we really help companies understand who they are, and help them with their messaging with their brand identity with their with the words that they use in their strategy to really stand out in their industry. And we do that through a very, very structured process. Being identical twins, you know, we’re definitely left brain right brain. So we bring that strategic and creative aspect to what we do. And really, I mean, more than anything, we help people align their brand strategy for their business strategy, because a lot of agencies are, you know, do exceptional work when it comes to brand, but what we do differently is we mirror brand and business strategies so that not only is the brand sustainable, and the best it can possibly be, but it’s aligned with their business strategy. So they get to where they want to go.

Jeremy Weisz  5:55  

I want to talk about that brand and business strategy, because sometimes people think of brand is this, you know, is that really going to? Should we focus on that? Is it really going to drive business and right, so you, you know, as you know, when people have that identity, they have a strong message in, in the business, in business in general, and people are attracted to them. So I’d love to talk about I know, you worked with many, many companies, some of which we can’t name, which are big that people would have heard of, but there is an IT company and talk about kind of what are the when they first come to you, what do you start with? And how does it work?

Winnie Hart  6:31  

Well, if you’re in the IT business, you know a little bit about growth these days. Well, I mean, this this company, I’m glad you mentioned that one, because it’s really less about what they deliver in terms of exceptional talent when it comes to outsource IT. But they really want to make a difference in the world. And I think knowing what you stand for is one thing, but knowing the difference you make in the world is another and marrying those two, I think that company in particular, we’ve done an exceptional job helping them do that. So this company is going to help a billion people on the planet, and they’re working with the UN SDGs the sustainable development goals. And not only, you know, using what they’ve achieved in business, but using it for good, so that they are, you know, purpose over profit. And, and that is just embodied everything that they do and help them not only stand out in their industry, but you know, their retention rate is incredible. And I think it has, it’s a significant aspect on why they’ve grown so much, you know, to really, really spend a lot of time understanding what’s important to them, what’s important to the planet, and what they can contribute, not only as individuals, but as a company to serve others.

Jeremy Weisz  7:42  

And do how do you start people off? They come to you? What are the issues that they’re stating they have?

Winnie Hart  7:49  

Well, most, I mean, for their unconscious and say, I need a brand strategy that aligns with our business strategy, they come to us and say, you know, either something like I’m missing out on opportunities, and they don’t know why. Maybe their businesses has grown to a certain level, and they’ve lost touch with why they started in the first place. I think many companies sort of think that everyone’s their customer. And one of the first things we say is everyone is not your customer period. And really help them align with, with really who their target audience is. And what’s really important that target target audience, you know, what keeps that target audience up at night and how they solve their problems. And it’s funny when when, when your brand is in alignment with your business, everything is easy. And I think companies often wonder, why is it so hard to retain employees? Why is it so hard to find the best fit for for partnerships? And it’s simply because they’re out of alignment? I don’t I don’t know if you’ve, if you’ve read more unrest stands, new book stand out as a thought leader. I mean, that’s my new book, The leader within us. I talk a lot about alignment in that book. Because I think that it’s misalignment that we’re looking for all these ways to solve certain problems in business, but we really believe that it’s alignment of brand purpose and business.

Jeremy Weisz  9:07  

Yeah, I love that. That’s so powerful to think on focusing on the target audience, right? I mean, people may have plateaued, or maybe they’re missing on opportunities, but focusing on the target audience is huge. And I’m curious, when you take them through this, and they now have a clear vision and a clear path to the target audience. Do you still get pushback from people that you know they’re still getting? They’re not perfect target audience coming in? Is there a discipline, there were like, you know, now we’ve identified because before, they were probably just taking everyone and it wasn’t focused, is there any pushback after you help them discover this and just not going after the other types of clients or customers, they were going after, before they kind of on a clear path.

Winnie Hart  9:54  

Why they think results or speak volumes, you know, when you’re really target, you know, focused on your target audience and the right ways, and solving the correct problems that you solve the best, then it works, you know, then you you just retain more of those clients that you’re looking for. So I think it’s it’s learned through through actually working through it. This also aligns with with, you know, people’s and you know, one thing I want to mention, Jeremy, I’m so glad you were talking earlier about about a brand. And it’s who you are, because I think a lot of companies don’t realize the importance of brand. internally. We’ve all heard about the great resignation. And I think that when you look when you when you look at these targets target audience you’re asking about and why that’s so important. It primarily, it’s most important because of employee retention, if you’re working with the wrong customers that are not aligned with you, and what you do and the problems you solved, and that’s causing a lot of anxiety and aggravation internally to your staff that you may be aware or may not be aware of. So it again, it goes back to alignment. It’s like it’s like an engine, it’s like a well oiled machine. You know, when things don’t align, things just work really well. And it prepares you for times when things don’t work so well. So that you’ve got that strong foundation about knowing where you are, what you stand for, you know, why you do what you do, and the difference you make in the world, not only to you and your customers, but also your employees,

Jeremy Weisz  11:18  

you’re coming out the other side, they come to you with these questions and these problems, and then obviously, you know, you work with them through their brand and how that kind of relates to their business itself. You know, I’m curious, one of the things what comes out on the other side, like you mentioned, they identify their brand, and you mentioned the company that has purpose over profits. So they discover kind of, you know, what do they care about? And then they have social causes, or they have different things that they deploy in the company, what does that look like, from how they deploy your your work together?

Winnie Hart  11:58  

Well, for them, it looks like growth, but not necessarily the growth that they have thought about growth in the past. It’s sustainable growth. You know, I think we’ve all been through I know, my company has been through intense gross periods where things fall apart, you know, it’s like, it’s like, it’s like, the thing you hope for but then then when you when it when it arrives, you’re like, Okay, what do I do now, but I think this positions them for a of a sustainable steady growth pattern, that that extends and lasts for a long period of time, and that it also gives them the foundation and the strength and the in the in the support in working through crisis periods. So for example, most of our customers, our clients, Excel during COVID, because they had that that foundation, knowing what they stand for the belief that they could do it, they had the the dedication of employees, and you know, to this whole higher purpose that helped them really thrive. And in a challenging time.

Jeremy Weisz  12:56  

Before we hit record, when he you said there’s a misconception that brand is something you market. What did you mean by that?

Winnie Hart  13:04  

I think that you know that, you know, people often come to us and say, Well, what is a brand? And we’re like, well, you are a brand, your company has a brand, everything that a brand is already exist. It’s our job just to just, you know, pull that out to extract that and to present it back to you in a way that is truly you. I think, you know, a brand is something that you are and marketing is something that you do. I think that the people have it backwards. And I think if people could understand being an identical twin, Jeremy, it’s like, I’m so lucky, because I see my, my, I see the reflection of who I am. Now, Lorrie and I differ in so many different ways. But you know, I can see myself outside of myself. And if companies could do that, just imagine the possibilities, you know, and we’re we’re in the process right now, especially with Stand Out as a Thought Leader in this book, which by the way, is not one of those books that you that you put on the shelf and read or maybe extract two things. It’s a book that’s filled with so many different activities and, and in ways that you can work through the eight fundamentals of standing out in business and how to strengthen them. So just everybody grab a copy of that coming out, I think about a month. But back to what you’re asking about in terms of a brand. I think that again, it goes back to Once you’re clear, everything’s easy. And it’s not that you know, it’s not like looking at an agency out there and asking them to Come help me build a brand, you know, to help me create a brand. It’s really just just expressing who you are and how to present yourself in an authentic way to your ideal audience.

Jeremy Weisz  15:10  

It feels less intimidating when you describe it like that.

Winnie Hart  15:13  

Actually, I’d say it’s easy. You know, it’s, this is not some big, you know, you know, magical thing that just appears, this is something that that you already are, that your company already is, and it’s in, it’s just putting it in its best possible light, so that it can achieve its potential.

Jeremy Weisz  15:31  

Now, I want to talk about your two books. And the one that you said you wrote the wrong book first, then. So which book was

Winnie Hart  15:42  

so well, there? This is this is we have three books. So the first book was Stand Out: Tools To Master The 8 Fundamentals Of Standing Out which, which is this book, obviously, we’ve changed the brand of them. But this was this was the first book. And what I realized was, you know, we spent years and years and years, you know, mastering these eight fundamentals and what they are and how to build an assessment to help people assess which fundamentals they need to strengthen. But then what I realized was, you know, when we when we launched the book, when on a speaking tour, we did hundreds of workshops, that it’s impossible to stand out if you don’t know what you stand for. So the first book we wrote, we should have written we actually wrote second, which is, what do you stand for, to really help people like, understand what they stand for, and the difference they make in the world? And once you know that, then you can go through the process of standing out.

Jeremy Weisz  16:32  

So what’s in that book? Which one? This? What do you stand for?

Winnie Hart  16:37  

What do you stand for? So what do you stand for, is, is is more like a workbook. So this is, um, takes you through the whole process of, of, you know, even identifying what your core values are, of course, there’s a lot of text in there. But it can also take you through archetypes. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to that process of archetypes. There’s also Jeremy will make sure to give you we have a digital version of this book that’s free to download, actually, both books so people can work through this. The thing I love the most about this book is, is a section that’s called ask and ask is where you ask five relationships, five questions. And then you get that feedback. And then you go through the process of analyzing how you feel about that feedback. And it’s it’s one of my one of my favorite parts about the book. But I think, you know, identifying what you stand for, it’s not just something that you do and you’re done. It’s not a period, it’s a comma, or maybe it’s a semicolon. It’s something that you go back and reevaluate over time. Because we evolve and change as people we evolve and change as businesses and companies and we evolve and changes brands.

Jeremy Weisz  17:39  

Should people Winnie go to twinengine.com to find that, or where should they go?

Winnie Hart  17:46  

Sure, go to twinengine.com. You’ll see both books there. You can also reach me through twinengine.com. Or you can email me [email protected] And I can send you the link to both of the digital books.

Jeremy Weisz  17:58  

You opened it up to the magician. What is that?

Winnie Hart  18:04  

Magician is an archetype. So there are Carl Jung, you may have heard of him was the master at supporting individuals understand what their archetypes are an archetype is is a persona. And we take companies through this process of identifying what their three top archetypes are. So magician in particular and I’ll open it up and read for you is is a really good one because it’s it’s it’s really like you know, how do you solve problems for people in ways that are almost magical so I’ll read you this I just have an episode so also called the call the shaman or the visionary, the core qualities or a desire for the understanding of the universe and how it works. It is spiritual, holistic and visionary that sometimes works miracles. So if you think about companies out there that may solve problems in almost magical ways could be magician, there’s one that’s also compared to it, that people actually kind of mess up sometimes which is the Creator. So creator is is Apple is a creator brand. And if you if you if you go to the book, it lists a bunch of them. So creator also called the artist the Creator represents imagination expressiveness a willingness to take risk is a cultural pioneer with a developed sense of the aesthetic. So you go through this process, you identify and your whole team does it, you go and you identify what your top three archetypes are and then you select your top archetype based on that there’s some other activities in the book like choosing characteristics that are your brand will help you so when you’re going through this branding process you’ll say well is that really magician to really you know feel that way or or remark writer or a hero really good way to bring people together to help really explore the deeper meaning and and persona of a brand of a company or even an individual?

Jeremy Weisz  19:52  

Yeah, as an individual. Where do you fall most?

Winnie Hart  19:57  

I’m I’m a creator and a hero. So So, you know, whereas I’m on the creative side, Lorrie more on the strategic side, so she’s more of an explorer. But you know, we switch back and forth.

Jeremy Weisz  20:12  

I was gonna say, I didn’t know if you’re a magician, because you are a problem solver from a young age, even when you’re trying to help your little brother in his crib.

Winnie Hart  20:23  

How do you go about that?

Jeremy Weisz  20:25  

So tell that story for a second. That’s what I thought you were gonna say the magician because

Winnie Hart  20:33  

the magician, okay. Just just magic, right? Yeah, well, you know, well, first of all, I’ve been a servant leader my entire life. This is not something that I learned in EO, and and so back to my little brother, Tommy. So if you met Tommy, you’d probably understand. But Tommy is just such an just an amazing human being runs a really successful business. But Tommy, you know, he had two identical twin sisters, who basically wanted to take care of Tommy, you know, even though we were probably three years old, and Tommy was, remember, he was in his crib. And actually, I don’t know if I remember this, or I was told this. So full disclosure. And so Lorrie, and I were like, well, he’s hungry. Well, I mean, let’s give him an apple. Alright, so So one of us put an apple in his crib, and then we realized that he didn’t have teeth. So the other, put a steak knife in his crib. So, of course, our parents came home and Tommy had a steak knife and an apple in his crib. So that was the beginning of our love relationship with our brother, Tommy. So

Jeremy Weisz  21:34  

I’m glad no one was harmed in that, in that particular story. That’s, yeah, that’s great. And so people can check out that out or email about what you stand for it in talking about the eight fundamentals of standing out. There are two in particular, that I want you to discuss, which is one is distinction.

Winnie Hart  21:59  

Distinction, well, that’s really understanding what it is that is unique about you. We’re actually one of my favorite tools in the book, and it’s a Venn diagram and, and you fill in like, you know, what, what do I offer that overlaps with what people are looking for, and in a space in a place where your competitors won’t, don’t or can’t, or other thought leaders. The reason this is so important to Lorrie and I is that for the first 13 years of our life, Jeremy, we actually thought we were one person Winnie Lorrie hyphenated Winnie Lorrie, because you know, we are our mother and father, you know, they we had a green of this green pleather chair in the living room. And every morning, we walk up to the chair and my outfit would be on on one side and Lorrie’s would be on the other and we put them on, they were identical look the same. Everyone called us Winnie Lorrie. And, and I mean, my grandmother, her entire life, thought, you know, didn’t really understand which one was which, because we’re impossible to tell apart. We were young. But it really forced us to think because I always thought, well, everyone’s comparing me to Lorrie, like, constantly, you know, you know, you know all the things when you see twins, you can’t help yourself, but compare them. But what I realized is that everyone else is being compared to other people too. And then I can use that skill to help people understand what it is that’s really distinct about them. And so this is something that I’ve been practicing my whole life. And that’s the key to distinction in the book.

Jeremy Weisz  23:26  

Love it. There’s another one, visual identity,

Winnie Hart  23:29  

visual identity. Well, how important is that today? Zoom? Yeah, I think that we actually were at a summit recently facilitating, and we’re talking about how important it is in how you show up at events, especially being a thought leader, you know, how your your your visible brand matters. So if you know me, you know, I only wear black, except for red one day a year. And it’s it’s, it’s it originally I actually got my degree in art and it was a it was something that I did because I was you know, sort of living on an artist salary. But it that’s why I only wore black in the beginning but it became a part of my brand and it’s a part of my brand. But I think how you show up, not only how you dress, but but how you look visually as an individual, you know, how you walk the stage, how your hold your hands, how you move, how people see you. And as a business, you know, how you look to the outside world, you know, you know from social media, social marketing, you know how everything is consistent so that when people see you because if you know anything about algorithms in social medias, they see you such a fraction of the time so that each time they see you they read something, it’s consistent, it’s visually connected so that people witness that brand. From an identity standpoint. We’re very strict about identity. And just making sure that we follow brand standards and that all of our partners follow brand Standard so that when a brand is seen visually that it’s very consistent and people recognize it.

Jeremy Weisz  25:05  

Yeah, yeah, I want to talk about your work with EO but it’s funny because you say that the black eye only wear white on the videos. And I think it stems from my backgrounds in biochemistry as a chiropractor. So I would always wear when I was seeing patients a white shirt and a white, like, lab coat. And so I just never lost that, I guess. But um, EO you know again, like servant leader talking about there’s so much time and energy that goes into it, outside of all the other stuff, your family or business, and you really have to be dedicated to serving others to, you know, serve on the Board of EO and everything that you’ve done? Talk about some of the stuff that you launched, help launch with EO.

Winnie Hart  25:52  

Well, first and foremost, for all of the EO members out there today, watching this podcast, listen, his pockets, please apply for the global board, it is the best roll that I’ve had in my entire life. And the ability to serve, has just been 10x for me as an individual. So please, please apply and reach out to me if you have any questions about it. So when I started EO, that’s 2005 2004. I was told that when you become a new member, you serve on the local board. And I was like, okay, all right. So that’s where that’s where it started. So that was 15 years ago. And I’ve started in a leadership position every year. And I have currently now serving as a global board director. But my proudest project, there have been many beyond serving through COVID is launching the new brand for you. So perfect, perfect roll for me, went through this whole process of interviewing agencies working through the whole brand strategy. And the big moment I had was, was it was a, it was an all planning meeting. And he was right outside of San Francisco at a place called multiple diversity 1440. And there was a grove of sequoia trees, I’d never seen a sequoia tree before. And what I realized about these trees is they grow to 3000 years. I mean, they these trees are just incredible. And they’re in each each year, there’s a ring. And so there was another tree. And what I learned about these trees is that they move they move in, in in space so that each one has enough light, and they’re connected in their roots. And what a perfect thing to think about is EO and so when you look at the logo today, some of the inspiration for that symbol was about was about these these sequoia trees, and about year over year, and the impact that this organization makes and this whole concept of amplification. And you’ll see in that in the symbol that there’s there’s open areas where locks and unlocks and provides that safe space as an organization. And I’m absolutely thrilled about the brand and was able to launch it during during COVID Actually, and just went also through the process of updating the the purpose statement. So that was a really amazing moment. Because one thing we realized through the crisis as entrepreneurs, the role that we have on this planet, and the new purpose is to move the world forward by unlocking the full potential of entrepreneurs. And think about that and think about if we did Imagine the possibilities. So my next mission is to actually see that through. So so but you know, serving in EO being an EO member, it’s hard to even put in words, but I will say it’s, it’s been so impactful for me and the people that I’ve been able to touch and the people that have touched me.

Jeremy Weisz  28:57  

love it, Winnie who our ideal clients or customers for you into an engine.

Winnie Hart  29:05  

I think, well, we work from everything from from startups to scale ups. And I think really more it’s more of a mindset, it’s it’s it’s individuals that lead companies that know that there’s more to do that know that there’s more market to share, that know that they have a bigger role and a bigger purpose in the world is people that that are struggling with their businesses and know that it it’s it’s got to be easier, there’s got to be a better way and and are willing to do the work to get there. You know, we go through our process, we’re actually in the process right now as a company of becoming a B Corp. You know, about you know, really focusing on serving others and serving brands and serving individuals. You know, because I think you know, and it goes back to that book, Jeremy, the you know, Stand Out as a Thought Leader, you know, we’re all thought leaders, you know, we are all thought leaders, if you have something that you want to share, and a message that you think is important for people to hear, you are a thought leader. And in every brand in every company, there is a leader or multiple leaders, and all of those leaders have to be really clear about what that message is, so that they can share that message to make an impact. And I think, you know, truthfully, you know, what, what we do at TwinEngine, and what the book promotes is something that the world needs, you know, the world needs us, the world needs that, that aren’t entrepreneurial thinking about, you know, how we can come together to solve the world’s biggest problems.

Jeremy Weisz  30:39  

Winnie I remember, I had someone I think, a few months ago who was a B Corp, and they said, It’s no joke, like actually applying and meeting their criteria, it’s not like you can just send in a check and become a B Corp. It’s, it’s a serious process.

Winnie Hart  30:54  

Well, I’m gonna give Lorrie full credit for that. And there were a bunch of entrepreneurs, organization members that supported us and going through the application process we just submitted I think a couple of months ago, but it’s it’s multi year process. And it’s, it’s not just again, like you said, you know, signing a check and mailing. And it’s about really looking at not only you know, how you treat your employees, but how you treat your customers, you know, you know, the environments that you work in, you know, the people that you serve, you know, how much of your you know, we give away 12% of our time to serve others in TwinEngine every year, of course, you only need 5% For B Corp status. But it just, you know, the thing is, it’s, it’s, you know, the more you give, the more you receive. And, you know, we’ve had the fortunate opportunity to be in a place as a company to really serve and give back to others. So I highly recommend, if you’re thinking about B Corp to start today, I’m happy to share my experience with you. But I think that I think it’s a real also a competitive advantage, and a way that companies can really stand out in the future, because with all other things around sustainability, and just against started leadership, I think this is going to become very important for companies to consider in the future,

Jeremy Weisz  32:15  

Winnie how do you choose a company to do pro bono work for and I don’t know if you can share any of the any of the the companies or the work you did with them, but but from the choosing process, because there’s probably you feel like there’s so many worthy organizations.

Winnie Hart  32:33  

Oh, gosh, well, I mean, caring. My last name is Hart for a reason. Winnie why don’t you marry James, of course, he’s a love of my life. And we’ve been married for over 30 years, but his name’s, it’s a good one part, it’s a good good thing. You know, I think that, you know, we are in our wings every day, and that’s our brand promises accompany and earning your rings is beyond just the tasks that you do. It’s, it’s going out into the world and, and serving, and it’s a big part of what we do and how we help our team, serve others in places that they want to serve. So people choose individual, I mean, everyone has different things that they’re interested in.

Jeremy Weisz  33:15  

A company may like bring up different organizations that are true to them. And

Winnie Hart  33:20  

so they have time that they’re allowed to, are given, gifted to go out and serve every month. And they have different things that they’re interested in, whether it’s a child development or feeding the hunger. I think it’s important. And I think it’s important for companies to support that. We have a few things that we focus on it at TwinEngine, one of them is cancer. We’re big cancer donors and my family, my husband, James, but also in terms of supporting organizations that, that support the, you know, looking for that, for that cure, or at least serving others that are being threatened by cancer and other life threatening diseases, but that my mother died of cancer in her 40s. And so it’s something that my my company and Lorrie and I and my entire family has been very, very focused on for many, many, many years cancers we have and we just did a brand which I can probably say this for a fellow EO member Dave Kaminsky. Who, if if you know what instrument C is, he’s the one who coined that term many, many, many years ago, he just launched Liver Foundation. And so we were able to serve him to build that brand to build his messages and his visible visible presence to serve others that are looking for living living, living liver donations are curious about how that works. So that’s pretty exciting. So you know, and if and if you are out there and looking for a way to serve others at a high level, please reach out to TwinEngine He’s looking for for great, great missions to serve some reach out.

Jeremy Weisz  35:06  

Thanks for sharing that. And sorry to hear about your mom. Last question Winnie and first of all, thank you, thanks for sharing your knowledge, your stories, and everyone should check out twinengine.com learn more, check out the books, I’m shocked that I was about to try and talk when he out of giving them away because they’re so valuable. But she’s generous enough to to give them away. So you can find them on the website or email her last question Winnie is EO has been a big part of your journey. And some of the mentors, you’ve had an EO and maybe a lesson you learned from them?

Winnie Hart  35:43  

Well, you know, together we grow. I think you you’ve probably if you’re if you’re around EO or know any other members. I think that that it’s it’s the togetherness that helps us move into the future. I think that, you know, we’re better together, we’re stronger together and that the world depends on us in so many different ways. Whether it’s from a from a giving perspective, a political perspective, a purpose, state perspective, strategy, perspective, economics perspective, you know, the world really looks to entrepreneurs and to, to find ways to solve the world’s biggest problems. And I think if we can come together to align not only with our brand as entrepreneurs, but our purpose, what we stand for, and while we make a difference in the world, we’re unstoppable.

Jeremy Weisz  36:37  

What mentors have you had in EO?

Winnie Hart  36:40  

What mentors will Warren Rustand is still a mentor for me today. What an incredible servant leader he is. And we’ve had we’ve I’ve had the fortunate opportunity to get to know him really well. And to start him and his new book, The leader within us, and, you know, Global Leadership Academy, I could go through a long list of things, but I think that every time that we’re touched by someone in terms of mentorship, that it’s up to us to touch 10 others. And I think that the way we grow is by just continuing in this just amazing, vast pool of knowledge to to continue all the things that we’ve learned to make the greatest impact.

Jeremy Weisz  37:25  

Yeah, I mean, he you ain’t talking about renaissance person. I mean, that’s Warren’s the definition of that. So definitely check that book out. And when he I want to be the first one to thank you everyone, check out twinengine.com. To learn more, check out more episodes of INspired INsider and Rising Entrepreneurs and, and thanks so much.

Winnie Hart  37:43  

Thank you Jeremy. Appreciate it.

Outro  36:32  

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