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Dan RoweDan Rowe is the CEO of Fransmart, one of the largest franchise development firms in the world. Dan has over 30 years of experience as a franchisor and franchisee, having grown brands like Five Guys, Qdoba, and The Halal Guys. Dan and his team at Fransmart help brands succeed by staying on top of the next big opportunities. Additionally, Dan is the Managing Partner of Kitchen Fund and an active Board Member of YPO and the National Restaurant Association.

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Here’s a Glimpse of What You’ll Hear:

  • Dan Rowe talks about his entry into franchise ownership
  • How to identify a winning franchise
  • What makes franchising such a lucrative venture?
  • What franchisees should know before investing in a brand
  • Dan discusses how Fransmart helps current and aspiring restaurant owners

In this episode…

In this episode of the SpotOn Series, Chad Franzen sits down with Dan Rowe, CEO of Fransmart, to talk about how the company has become one of the world leaders in franchising. Dan shares how his time in the restaurant industry led him to franchising, the ways Fransmart helps franchisees succeed, and the tried-and-true systems restaurant owners need to grow and reach their goals.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

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Episode Transcript

Intro  0:04

Welcome to the Top Business Leaders Show powered by Rise25 Media. We featured top founders, executives and business leaders from all over the world

Chad Franzen  0:20

Chad Franzen here co host for this show where we feature top restaurant tours, investors and business leaders. This is part of our SpotOn Series. Spot on has the best in class payment platform for retail and they have a flagship solution called SpotOn restaurant, where they combine marketing software and payments all in one. They’ve served number one from larger chains like Dairy Queen and Subway to small mom and pop restaurants. To learn more, go to This episode is brought to you by Rise25. We help b2b businesses to get ROI clients referrals and strategic partnerships through done for you podcast. If you have a b2b business and want to build great relationships with clients, referral partners and thought leaders in your space. There’s no better way to do it than through podcasts and content marketing to learn more go to or Dan Rowe is CEO of Fransmart, one of the largest restaurant franchise development firms around the world. For the last 30 years Dan has invested in and grown emerging restaurant concepts into the global brands they are some of those include Five Guys Burgers and Fries and Qdoba Mexican Eats. He also serves on the board of directors of the National Restaurant Association. Dan, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

Dan Rowe  1:32

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Chad Franzen  1:34

Hey, so tell me a little bit more about Fransmart and what you guys do?

Dan Rowe  1:37

Yeah, so for 30 years, we basically have tried to find the next big thing as early as we can. So I started in the bagel business 30 years ago. And there was no bagel chains and I got involved with the bagel chain group to a couple of 100 stores sold it. One of them I was a franchisee as well. One of my shops was across from the original Chipotle. We tried to talk that guy into franchising and see wasn’t interested. But Qdoba copied, we got involved. We invested in Qdoba and grew Qdoba sold that to Jack in the Box. And then I just sort of found that as my niche trying to find the next big thing early, it didn’t bother me at all that these brands were emerging early stage, we knew how to figure that stuff out. And frankly, I liked that better than trying to go after two or 300 unit tire chain and figuring out how to make that relevant. So that’s that’s really been our business. And, you know, we’ve even invested in a bunch of brands that don’t franchise like Sweetgreen and Cava it’s like if we find something that we think can get to 500,000 units we can invest when it’s a couple stores. We’ll take every share we can buy.

Chad Franzen  2:42

How do you identify brands like that?

Dan Rowe  2:47

Yeah, it’s not there’s not one thing and we don’t always get it. Right. Right. And so like not only not only sometimes do we guess wrong on the concept, but we might get the concept right, but then founders just can’t quite keep it together like that, sadly has been a trouble for us in the past but really, you know, you’re sort of looking at what’s the next thing so like in Five Guys, we need five guys was never going to be the biggest burger brand. But we knew that it its niche. Its micro niche was this fresh burger sort of better burger segment. It’s like an I knew I could own that. And in Qdoba. I mean back when Chipotle at one store. keto had one. You know our competition was Taco Bell and you know del taco and so there’s same thing as like, Okay, we like fresh, fresh Mexican is a thing. But then, you know, like I’m growing. I’m growing the fastest growing Middle Eastern brand in the world called The Halal Guys. And I found these guys when they were street carts in New York City. 25 years, they got three carts and wildly successful carts like I have nothing to do with with why customers didn’t long lines for that they love the food. But I sat there and I said, you know, we’ve opened up in the Middle East 25 times or whatever, opening American brands over there, and fell in love with the street food. And then all of a sudden I started thinking it’s like there’s a billion and a half Muslims. And I can’t think of one restaurant chain, one restaurant brand, I can’t think of one brand, even in the grocery aisles. I can’t think of a Muslim, or a Middle Eastern athlete or celebrity that I knew or apparel company or tech company or car company or anything and I’m like, wait a minute, there’s actually an opportunity here to put together and so we that you know that that was one of our options. But we also look at real estate. Like if I think if we’re better at anything, it’s probably real estate around you know, we’ve we’ve been steadily in the top 50, 60 media markets in North America. We know all the best locations, all the best landlords and we’re constantly trying to figure out like, what what is that what holes are there in the markets, you’re talking to landlords? It’s like, he can’t come up with another burrito guy right now it’s not going to get rid of Chipotle is not going to get rid of Five Guys or Starbucks. So you’ve got to have a concept of It’s a little different to be broadly appealing, but it’s got to be different enough that the landlords want to make room for you. So there’s a lot of that we looked at. And then, you know, for us, we franchise a lot of times our existing franchisees are the first franchisees of our new brands. And so we’re constantly in touch with our existing franchisees in us, sort of, you know, what are you looking for? What are you guys interested in? And you just kind of triangulate all that, and you know, but that that’s it, there’s, there’s a, there’s a lot to it. But like I said, we’re not always right. And unit economics is probably, you know, that’s another telltale sign is customers vote with their wallets, these places aren’t busy. Like, we just just just signed up with a new, I think the next big thing is plant based plant based concepts. And we just signed up with a plant based burger brand in Los Angeles, and his sales, he’s got one location he opened during COVID. And his sales were already higher than Five Guys national average. And so it’s like, Well, that tells you customers like it, and you know, he’s not doing a ton of marketing. He’s got a decent location, but he’s, you know, stores are really, really busy. And so, you know, kinda like, you know, there’s sort of a lot of things that we look at, but but that, yeah, that covers it.

Chad Franzen  6:11

I mentioned a few of those in your intro, Qdoba. And Five Guys, because those are the kind of the ones that I’m most familiar with. Can you tell me about some other brands that you’ve helped launch?

Dan Rowe  6:21

Yeah, so we’re growing. Like I said, The Halal Guys is the fastest growing Middle Eastern brand. Halal brand. The Curry Up Now is the fastest growing Indian brand, another segment with billions in the population and there’s no Indian chain. We have the fastest growing Indian chain in North America. We’re already coast to coast and several multi unit franchisees. We’re growing back in the full service business you ever heard of a TV show called Bar Rescue,

Chad Franzen  6:50

I have.

Dan Rowe  6:51

So Jon Taffer. And I launched a concept during COVID. It’s a full service, bar tavern. But because everyone’s talking about, you know, labor and labor problems, and all the things that sort of plague full service, we actually engineered that concept to have no goods. So we have this really, really busy full service restaurant, you know, Jon, and I said, look, let’s do, let’s figure out a concept to do, where there’s tons of opportunity and casual dining has just been obliterated the last decade, and then COVID just wiped out another 20% of market. But landlords are starving for it, you have a lot of franchisees that are already in full service who are looking for non competing vehicles. And we said let’s create a concept that does more volume and less square feet, more volume with less employees. And like 50% drink sales because that’s where a lot of profit is. And we came up with this concept that’s it’s a good listen, that was full service, high volume restaurant, its uses to be technology even to all this stuff. But you know, but we created that brand. We’re growing Rise, Rise Biscuits and Donuts is a concept that they disclose their numbers publicly. So I’m not talking about a school but this was a brand you know, biscuit sandwiches and donuts, successful brand even before COVID And then all of a sudden with COVID they automated their order taking so now everything’s either on an app or on a kiosk they have no more cashiers and then they ordered their Expo so you no longer have someone boxing up your food and running it out to the table or or calling your name, they put it in the heated locker and so you basically you know he’s got a restaurant that rise it’s are in like 10 states but his sales because he automated the order taking sales actually went up almost 20% Like customers are buying more food when you leave them alone. And they actually enjoy that experience. And then the he gets rid of to staff he basically gets rid of the cashier and the expo person and moves everything to a locker and it all started for the conversation that he had with his employees about like what do you like here? What don’t you like what kind of things do we need to get rid of and and people at Rise it’s a culinary like the food’s really good, but they’re like we like cooking we like making the food we enjoy making really anxious food we don’t like all this other stuff. And so he basically engineered his concept to to for his employees and for his culture and like I said sales went up the margins like he almost doubled his profit margin and but yeah, so rise is another brand that we have but we have a lot we have our first non food brand we have a concept called Pay More so it’s a it’s a Buy, Sell trade new and used electronics we actually got it originally thinking you know what, let’s let’s come up with a lower price lower ticket franchise for the people who really couldn’t afford to do restaurant franchises. But all the sudden the people buying the franchises are all want big territories because this is a brand that costs you know, 100,000 to open and I think that they disclose it to million dollars in sales in their shops. So we see this nobody’s doing that new and used electronics gaming, and it’s Buy Sell trade. And you know, it’s just a hot little business but we were drawn to that one originally by Internet economics we looked at their item 19 in their offering circular and, you know, they spend 100 or $200,000 to open and they do 10 times that much in sales. And so we’re constantly you know, we’re constantly looking.

Chad Franzen  10:30

Yeah, you’ve been a you’ve been a multi unit franchisee, master franchisee or a franchisor. You mentioned you were in the restaurant business before before you even got involved in franchising. Why are you such a big believer in franchising?

Dan Rowe  10:43

Just you know, it’s, it’s I, when I was 18 years old, I went to a motivational seminar so it’s a two day event in my takeaway is I wanted to get wealthy helping people get wealthy and that’s the only way franchising works. Right. So like, if I’m out there growing five guys in the franchisee struggle, it goes nowhere, right? You waste your time and your energy. But franchising is one of these things. It’s the great equalizer. It’s like, if your franchisees aren’t successful if your franchisors aren’t successful, if your vendors aren’t successful, if your key stakeholders in your business aren’t successful, you’re never going to be successful. But I love it. I like to, you know, we’ve we’ve a bunch of people, even on our website have given us videos over the years that we put up. There’s a lot of people that started off with being worth hundreds of 1000s that are now making millions of dollars, right and so worth tons of money. And it’s all happened through franchising. Franchising has been good for me, the whole restaurant business has been good for me. So, you know, I’ve been doing this for 30 years, I’m planning on doing it, God willing, another 30 years. And I honestly would do this if I wasn’t making any money.

Chad Franzen  11:51

What were you doing before you got into investing? What were you doing in terms of working in the restaurant industry?

Dan Rowe  11:58

I was a cook, and I was a dishwasher. And through high school, I was a cook in a dishwasher. I was a scrub. And then I got lucky when I was 18 I got in the technology business made some money between 18 and 23 and started off as a franchisee when I was 23. So I made I went out made some money. And the first thing I did is got right back in the restaurant business bought a franchise and I love it. It’s just like nothing, no better, no better pleasure. I get them feeding people, right. And so like you feed people, you make them, you know, just and you know, in the restaurant business, you don’t have to wait weeks or months or years for feedback from customers. You get it, you get it right away. And so you know, anyways, I love this business.

Chad Franzen  12:38

So you were doing what you were successful financially outside of the restaurant business. But you You missed it. Apparently he must have really loved it. And he wanted to get right back in.

Dan Rowe  12:47

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I like it. It’s just I hated, I was in the software business, I hate data centers, right. And then for one year, I was doing medical medical practice, like automating radiology practices. And like, the only thing worse than a data center is hospital. And it’s like, I couldn’t see myself being in either one of those the rest of my life. restaurant business is just fun. You know, it’s just fun. So I like it, and my business, I get to travel all over the world. I’ve been all over the world with the restaurant business. And so, you know, it’s it’s a it’s been good,

Chad Franzen  13:19

What are some characteristics of a good franchisee? And when they decided to finally make the decision to invest, what are they really getting into what they should be? What should they be aware of?

Dan Rowe  13:30

Yeah, so when you’re when you’re when you’re a franchisee the thing to be aware of is it’s not your business is that it’s you’re you’re basically, franchising is a business of systems, the most successful franchisees follow systems, they basically build, I mean, you talk to any big 20, 30, 50 unit franchisee and you say, what’s different between Why are you doing so much sales and profit compared to the people that are struggling? And almost every one of them will say, we follow the system. And the franchisees who struggle are the guys that constantly cut corners are trying to reinvent the wheel. But if you if you sort of buy into a system, and you see hey, Five Guys works, it’s like this people like this thing, you know, all I have to do is do this and that this net the way that they’re telling me and Halal Guys where it’s like, you know, they have systems if you follow the systems, but it’s also a good sign. Like there’s a lot of franchisees oddly enough, they want to be entrepreneurs, but they want to hedge the odds that the risk a little bit by buying a franchise. Once they get in, they actually realize that they don’t like being told what to do. They don’t like to be you know, mic, you know, sort of manager micromanaged and they don’t want to be accountable and you know, their franchisees that sort of are not transparent with their franchise owners and you know, and like I said there’s people that cut corners but if you want to make a lot of money in this business, just follow the systems and you know we have a trend, we have a technique that that that we do like I liked it really. I’ve seen done in our business many times, where if you get into a franchise, you get into an emerging brand, which is where we play. You know, the first couple Five Guys, for example, were all low cost conversions, right? They cost next to nothing to open, they had huge sales because it was a great concept franchisees that make their money back quick, and you make so much money that you want to reinvest that money into more stores will before you know you’ve got this, like compounded returns, because you’ve taken your profit, put it into more stores that make more profit and take the profit from two stores to make four stores and a source. And if you just follow the system, that’s how it works. And again, if you talk to any big franchisee, that’s exactly how they did it. There’s no other way, like you’re not going to cut corners, you’re not going to reinvent the wheel. And think that think that it’s going to be better than the franchisor.

Chad Franzen  15:48

So you may have already covered this a little bit. But if somebody was interested in becoming a franchisee, how does the process work? If you want to work with Fransmart? Yeah, so

Dan Rowe  15:56

You just call us and so you call us your email, you email us we have a spectrum of brands, depending on capital, depending on you know, how interested are they to operate, and we really want to work with a franchisee I’d rather not sell a franchise than to sell a bad franchise, I’d rather because I also have a reputation with my brands, I don’t want to sell a deal. And it doesn’t work out. So we actually spend time with franchisees to kind of understand where are you? Where are you trying to go? What are you trying to get to, I might actually hook them up with a couple of franchisees so that they can actually like, you know, if I’ve got someone who’s one of my buddies is a technology guy who built a franchise on the side, and now that franchise is five times bigger than the amount of money he was originally making. And so I might if somebody in technology that has those aspirations, I might pair them up and let them let them talk and shit, you know, experience share. But really, you just call us you, you know, whether it kind of doesn’t matter. If you’ve got a little bit of capital, we’ve got access to capital, you know, whatever size franchise, you’re interested, we’re gonna want to help you build something bigger. And so we get you in the right brand and come up with the right strategy, then, you know, our experience says you’re going to keep building our franchises.

Chad Franzen  17:11

How ready should a first time franchisee be for you know, like doing dirty work, you know, like cleaning and cleaning tables or just doing everything involved in the location?

Dan Rowe  17:20

Yeah, I think so. It’s funny that technology guy mentioned, he actually bought a franchise in a different states that he did none of that. But But normally, I would say, don’t buy a franchise if you’re not willing to do everything like you have to you because it all has to get done. So if you if you either you’re doing it, or you have to hire people to do it, and you know, and if you’re not willing to roll up your sleeves, at the end of the day, again, we clean restaurants are important. You know, fast service is important. If you’re not willing to jump in to make sure there’s something going on in your restaurant and let you know, let’s say that you’ve got this big surge of customers, and you’re not willing to jump in and help out if you’re not willing to go to training, right. So like you’re buying here, people spend millions of dollars to lock up a territory and buy franchises during go through training. One of the telltale signs that we have on this subject is one of the first things that that we do in our screening process is we talk about training. And a lot of times we actually pad it make it seem like it’s longer. And when franchise when prospects ask us well, I don’t want to do that. Can I just go to like a week long training, it’s like, that’s the first indication this isn’t for you.

Chad Franzen  18:26

How do you guys help current restaurants become franchise brands? And what kind of goes into that?

Dan Rowe  18:31

Yeah, so we find a concept that we like, like, there’s never been a concept that we can’t figure out how to make drive the sales and reduce the cost, make them more profitable. We help them with their systems in their procedures. So a lot of people have systems about how you run a shift in the restaurant. But how do you actually build a procedure for someone to go build five of them or 10 of them? Right? And CO packers are their supply lines like it’s one thing like with the Halal Guys, I mean, that was halal meat is not it’s sort of a new thing. And they’re famous for their sauce, their sauces that go on their their products. So the first thing that we had to do was figure out a national solution. We had to no matter where in the country we open, we had to make sure that that product would get to each franchisee and so we’re I mean, we’re involved at unit economics, helping the franchisors build their systems and processes, helping franchisees staff for the kind of the businesses that they’re trying to grow. You know, we coach franchisors because they’re going to go from mom and pop into a company too. And if that doesn’t go, well, then the whole, the whole thing’s a little shaky. So we’re involved in the whole thing. But there’s nothing that we haven’t seen, like we’re involved in real estate. We’re involved in creating marketing plans, like we just know, because we’ve got this great big ecosystem of best practices and best known ways for everything and not just the brands and Fransmart what brands we’re investing in. It’s like we’re constantly picking up stuff that that somebody does better than everybody else that we put into what we call the Fransmart way. And so if you’re New brand. Day one, you get all that stuff. So like this new plant based brand I’m talking about, he’s about to go through a deep dive, and he’s gonna get it, he’s gonna get everything we got.

Chad Franzen  20:11

I was literally just gonna ask you about the Fransmart way, what is that? So

Dan Rowe  20:15

it’s, it’s really our best known way how to do everything. So if you think about a chain, like like links in the chain, right? Franchising, everything it takes to open everything it takes to operate is super predictable, right? So like, you already know, you’re gonna have 100 Subway, 100, you know, Century 21s, whatever. It’s the same process of getting those things open and then operate. And we’re constantly looking at every single link in the chain to see is there a better way of doing it? Can we do it better? Is there a lower price, you know, a better price is there, you know, something, it’s more efficient, has better. And so we’re constantly like working through that to make sure that if you’re a new brand, or a franchisee, and one of our brands, as you’re going through this process, you’re getting the latest and greatest, best known way of every link in the chain.

Chad Franzen  21:04

How has COVID affected what you guys do to that kind of throw you guys for much of a loop?

Dan Rowe  21:10

Well, in the beginning of COVID, it was terrible, because no one knew what the heck was going on, or how long it was going to last. And then it didn’t take long before we actually said you know what we’re either going to be, we’re either going to affect the situation, or we’re going to get affected by the situation. And we said, You know what, the 8 billion people on the planet, everyone wakes up hungry, they’re eating somewhere, we got to figure out how to still, you know, do business. And so, you know, we’ve had to figure this out. And it’s, you know, a satis COVID is, and I’m not I’m not tone deaf to how bad COVID has been, you know, 30% of the restaurant business closed or is like severely limping, right. And so sad is that is you’re still looking at, like, we’ve got 100% of the population in the market we’re on we’re only 70% of the people are still standing, that’s an opportunity. So we started to look and we said hey, there’s never going to be a better time to go pick off a plus real estate never going to be a better time to go get really good conversions. Right. And so, you know, vendors, like we have a lot of vendors, like all of a sudden, they you know, like some like CO packing vendors that all of a sudden went from having their certain set of rules to all of a sudden being very flexible. You had landlords who are just so arrogant, smug, used to being a landlords market that we’re now as humble is it could get and that and that the deal terms that you were able to get with landlords is just incredible. And then you know, it’s like one thing after another it’s like we you know, we’re dealing with like the same labor problems everyone else in the world is like okay, well how do we navigate around that? Like let’s figure out how to do our concepts so that we can overpay our employees but still have a lower labor cost? Well, you do that by engineering out labor, right. So you sort of use of like I told you about with riser with with hammers. And so you know, supply line issues like well, supply line issues are killing people, it’s like, Okay, well let’s figure out how to not let that kill us. And so we do menu engineering and figure out how to sell more items, more of the items that are easy to get that are super profitable, and you know, and so we’ve just constantly bobbed and weaved and figured it out and we’re growing like crazy, but it’s like any that you remember two, two years ago in March, the stock market dropped like crazy went into like 19,000 Whatever and at all the people a lot of people were panic selling into that drop right a lot of people lost a lot of money by panic selling into the drop the smarter people were buying in the market now it’s you know, it was under 20 and now it’s close to 40,000 and you know and so like the smart people know it’s like the time to get in is it is when no one else is it’s like you know and so anyways and again I don’t mean to sound tone deaf about it but the last few years has been very good for business.

Chad Franzen  23:57

How can people find out more about Fransmart or connect with you?

Dan Rowe  24:01

Yeah, my email is Dan@Fransmart, so happy to happy to connect with anyone

Chad Franzen  24:07

and his net. Why is now coming kind of coming out of COVID or, you know, in the latest turn in COVID Why is now a good time to become either a franchisee or a franchisor

Dan Rowe  24:17

to supply and demand right it’s just well the supply and demand of all the publicly traded restaurant concepts go look at Domino’s go look at Taco Bell look good Chipotle, everybody seems to our sales are up. And so what I’m saying is like even though it sounds like there’s some people making fortunes, you see Sweetgreen just went public and had a crazy valuation 150 unit chain went out at I think $4 billion, or something like that. And it’s like, there’s so much money out there. There’s so much opportunity. But I think right now it’s a good time two years ago, it was very difficult two and a half years ago is very difficult to be in this business there just felt like there was too many restaurants, landlords, it’s the landlord’s market. Everything was expensive. Two years From now, it could be that way against, you’re sort of in this window right now where it’s sort of like the drop like that stock market, when it drops, like right now is the time to get in. So the new franchisee got in today, you know, anything at Domino’s, or one of our brands or whatever it is. But if they can lower their startup cost by half, they basically just double or triple their ROI, right. So like, you’re just you’re and you’re just not going to have that opportunity for much longer. And for franchisors, it’s like I think, I think if someone’s got a really good concept in it, it’s not just a good concept for today. But it could be a good concept, like for the next five to seven to 10 years, like you can really, you know, it’s not just another knee to concept, but it actually has its own soul and its own DNA. And it really is the front end, sort of like in pizza. Like the only thing I like right now, sort of Detroit style pizza is like no one, I love pizza, but no one’s doing that. And I get we get these emails every day from another Pizza guidance, just like any other pizza guys. I’m like, no, no, no, it’s got to be something new and different. Someone is going to go get a little micro niche. But right now, it’s just the same thing. It’s like, it’s easy. You got a lot of franchisees existing franchisees of other brands that want non competing brands to grow with you got, you know, I talked to earlier, somebody with 15, Little Caesars and he’s like, and I said, Do you wish that you had 50 Little Caesars, he says yes, I just can’t get them sold out less, I want to go buy them, which is six, eight times cash flow. It’s like, but I can’t get them anymore. And another guy bought a whole bunch of Jersey Mike’s and paid seven times cash flow for Jersey Mike’s. So what you’re gonna break, you’re gonna get your money back in seven years. And if you use debt to be eight or nine years to get your money back, it’s like go, you know, and so a lot of these people are looking for other brands. So now’s a good time, I think it’s a good time to get into business. You know, so it’s, it’s not going to be that way from home.

Chad Franzen  26:59

Final question for you. Are there any books that you have found particularly enjoyable or valuable during the course of your kind of your journey?

Dan Rowe  27:07

Yeah, I mean, I read a lot. So I read I mean, one of my favorite books of all time is the richest man in Babylon. And it’s a, it’s a quick, quick, quick read. But it talks about, you know, the idea of compounding your returns. And Warren Buffett says the surest way to get wealthy is with compounded returns. And so Richest Man in Babylon awesome book takes, it’s an hour and a half read, you get the gist and the first 20 minutes. The rest of it is just examples to work through in your own mind. And then the other one is the number. I think that the number is a great book. And it’s something that a lot of people need to come to grips with. It’s like, what is my number? How much money do I need? Do I want? What’s it going to take to live the kind of life that I want to live and set my family up? And you know, whatever your legacy issues are, whatever your wealth at dreams are? I think you should, I think you should put a number to it, and then work backwards, like how am I going to get there? Right? And so those are two fantastic books. Same thing. The the the number is that, you know, you get the gist just from me telling you, but the book is fantastic, and it will walk you through some good, some good exercises to figure out what your number is.

Chad Franzen  28:14

Okay. Hey, I really appreciate your time today. Dan, it was great to hear your thoughts and your insights and will encourage people to go to to learn more about you. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Dan Rowe  28:24

My pleasure. Thanks.

Chad Franzen  28:26

So everybody.

Outro  28:27

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