Search Interviews:

Zac Cramer

Zac Cramer is the Founder of How To Business, a website offering business advice for entrepreneurs, and the CEO of IT Assurance, an IT consulting business that helps companies manage their IP infrastructure and provides helpdesk service to their workers and other companies. He has been an entrepreneur from a young age, starting his first business venture selling candy on the playground. Later he was the CTO of riderscartel.com and the CEO at Happy Hamster Computer Repair.

Zac graduated from Boston University with a degree in Classical Civilizations and is an EOS Implementer, where he helps other entrepreneurs find clarity and become leaders in their industry.

Spotify
Apple
Google Podcast
Amazon Music
Tune In
Stitcher
iHeart Radio
Deezer

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

  • Zac Cramer talks about his transition into IT and lessons he learned as a new entrepreneur
  • How can transparency help your business cope with the stress of the COVID-19 pandemic
  • Zac explains how a change in his leadership style began a career as an EOS Implementer
  • The motivation behind publishing widely available business advice
  • Zac shares who he admires and has influenced his career in the entrepreneurial industry

In this episode…

Are you looking to redefine your business goals and cultivate a healthy work environment for your team? Where can you find the tools to revolutionize your brand without draining your budget?

Zac Cramer knows the efficacy of putting value in employees and implementing strategies that work. More importantly, information is readily available for anyone who desires to build a business. He created a space for entrepreneurs to gain knowledge of best practices to help their brands grow — without a heavy price tag. Zac uses his education and experience to guide other entrepreneurs and solve business problems. If you’re looking for guidance, you’ve come to the right place.

On this episode of the Rising Entrepreneurs Podcast, John Corcoran sits down with Zac Cramer, Entrepreneur and Founder of How To Business, to discuss what it takes to create a great business. Zac shares lessons he learned as a young entrepreneur, how becoming an EOS Implementer changed his business model, and his driving motivation behind sharing his experience and educational content.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Sponsor for this episode

At Rise25, we’re committed to helping you connect with your Dream 100 referral partners, clients, and strategic partners through our done-for-you podcast solution.

We’re a professional podcast production agency that makes creating a podcast effortless. Since 2009, our proven system has helped thousands of B2B businesses build strong relationships with referral partners, clients, and audiences without doing the hard work.

What do you need to start a podcast?

When you use our proven system, all you need is an idea and a voice. We handle the strategy, production, and distribution – you just need to show up and talk.

The Rise25 podcasting solution is designed to help you build a profitable podcast. This requires a specific strategy, and we’ve got that down pat. We focus on making sure you have a direct path to ROI, which is the most important component. Plus, our podcast production company takes any heavy lifting of production and distribution off your plate.

We make distribution easy.

We’ll distribute each episode across more than 11 unique channels, including iTunes, Spotify, and Google Podcasts. We’ll also create copy for each episode and promote your show across social media.

Co-founders Dr. Jeremy Weisz and John Corcoran credit podcasting as being the best thing they have ever done for their businesses. Podcasting connected them with the founders/CEOs of P90xAtariEinstein BagelsMattelRx BarsYPO, EO, Lending Tree, Freshdesk, and many more.

The relationships you form through podcasting run deep. Jeremy and John became business partners through podcasting. They have even gone on family vacations and attended weddings of guests who have been on the podcast.

Podcast production has a lot of moving parts and is a big commitment on our end; we only want to work with people who are committed to their business and to cultivating amazing relationships.

Are you considering launching a podcast to acquire partnerships, clients, and referrals? Would you like to work with a podcast agency that wants you to win?

Contact us now at [email protected] or book a call at rise25.com/bookcall.

Rise25 Co-founders, Dr. Jeremy Weisz and John Corcoran, have been podcasting and advising about podcasting since 2008.

Episode Transcript

Intro  0:02  

Welcome to the Rising Entrepreneurs Podcast, where we feature top founders and entrepreneurs and their journey. Now let’s get started with the show.

John Corcoran  0:13  

Alright, welcome everyone. John Corcoran here. I’m the host of this show. And you know, every week I get to talk to smart CEOs, founders and entrepreneurs of all kinds of companies ranging from Netflix to Kinkos YPO EO activation, lizard boy this week was just sold for 70 something billion to Microsoft LendingTree Open Table X software many more. I’m also the Co-Founder of Rise 25 where we help connect b2b business owners their ideal prospects and today’s guest is Zac Cramer. He’s an entrepreneur, and he’s a business expert. He’s the CEO of IT Assurance, which is an IT company company based out in Portland, Oregon, helps other companies to manage their IP infrastructure and provide helpdesk service to their workers. He also he is also an EOS implementer. So we’ll talk about that a bit. And the owner and lead writer of How to Businesses business advice, website and fun fact Zac started How to Business after realizing in his words, that most of the business advice on the internet was written by unpaid interns that never fired anyone in their lives or done much of anything outside of a college textbook, his words not mine. And he’s also a member of the EO Portland chapter. So we’ll talk about some of his experiences that are going to inform that website that he started, of course, this episode is brought to you by Rise 25, where we help b2b businesses, the client referrals and strategic partnerships we’ve done for you podcasting, content, marketing, go to rise25media.com, or email us at [email protected], if you want to learn more about that. Zac it’s such a pleasure to have you here today. And I want to start with a story about a time in your journey, building up your company. And one day you get to payroll. And you get to payroll and you’re like, oh crap we are in this is the nightmare scenario for every business owner. $400 short, or maybe the nightmare? Nightmare scenario is $20,000. Short, but you’re short no matter what. But you came up with a creative solution. So tell us a story.

Zac Cramer  2:02  

Oh, man, yeah, this was this was I was a few years into it. And, you know, we we were in, we ran payroll. And you know, we came to the total at the bottom, and I knew things were I knew they were close, I knew they were going to be tight. And you know, I looked at the payroll number. And then I looked at my bank account, and I saw that we were literally $400 short on on payroll, and it had to process that night. And so I, you know, panicked, basically, and I pulled up my QuickBooks, and I pulled up, you know, the invoices and look for who owed me money and found one of my old clients who, who owed me 400, I was still a client, by the way, 15 years later, he’s still a client. And I called him up and I said, Bob, Bob’s his real name, and you give him a student and I said, Bob, I really need for that invoice paid. And I come over and get a check. And Bobby’s Bless his heart. He said, Absolutely, come on over get it drove over to Bob’s office gave me a check for $400 to get straight to the bank deposited it. And it was actually the only time in my life I have seen a $0 bank balance. I mean, we had literally when I woke up the next morning, literally $0 in the bank, but we made payroll. So I think it was worth it. But yeah, that was a that was a hell of a thing.

John Corcoran  3:07  

Scary, scary incident. And now we were talking beforehand. And you said that, you know, I realized I’m a guy who was born into privilege, you know, you you grew up going to good schools and a nice community and, you know, affluent part of Los Angeles. What was it like for you, as you moved into entrepreneurship? Because you weren’t born into a family of entrepreneurs? You experiencing something like that? Was it a feeling of God, I gotta get my act into it in order, or what was that like after that?

Zac Cramer  3:43  

Well, you know, I had to get kicked in the face a lot before the before the arrogance started to fade out. So you know, I started my business and thought I knew everything, you know, I thought, Oh, well, why should I work somewhere because if you work somewhere, you’re just making them more money than they’re paying you that’s a foolish idea. And I didn’t realize that you can work for free. You can work for negative money, right? I you know, I’ve had months company history where where we lost money, and I didn’t take a paycheck. And I just didn’t understand honestly a damn thing about running a business. When I started one, I would yell at employees and I would yell at customers and you know, he just would freak out. And it was, it was it was it was a long time. It was years of getting kicked in the face before I started to realize, you know, I have no idea what I’m doing.

John Corcoran  4:25  

Yeah. And you know, I thought it was amusing you know, you’ve run an IT company for many years now, before that you were in a computer repair business. And so you know, naturally you began your career as all you know, IT company CEOs do by getting an undergraduate degree in classical civilizations, right, like, that’s where everyone starts, right? How did that happen? How did you even get into this line of work in the first place?

Zac Cramer  4:50  

Um, so I’ve always been a nerd or has been, you know, an IT engineer type of person and when I graduated from college with that classics degree and The ability to read ancient Greek. I knew that I wanted to start a business and I was just kind of trying to figure out what I started. I said, this business started with me putting ads on Craigslist saying, I’m Zac, I’ll come to your house and I’ll fix your computer. And if I can’t, I’m not going to charge you. And that was, you know, that was the origin. You know, as far as the college degree goes, I regret nothing. I have very fond memories of going to college and getting that degree. I use random references to Sparta and Athens during company meetings make myself sound smart. So I’m, I’m glad I got to spend those four years doing one thing that isn’t what I’ve been doing for the rest of my life. But yeah, it’s a little funny.

John Corcoran  5:32  

Hey, you’re talking to an English major. So I felt the same way. I read some really cool books. No, I’m not sure that they helped me in starting a business. You know, I never I never participated in like entrepreneurial clubs in college or anything like that. But you said that when you graduate, he knew you wanted to start a company. So was it an evolution during college you decided you wanted to start a company? Or how did that come about?

Zac Cramer  5:54  

No, I I’ve actually been I started running companies. When I was in, I think, second or third grade I my very first company, I would go to 711. And buy warheads, candies, and then on the playground, I would sell them off for 10 cents a pop. So I was I was the, I think one of the only people in school history to get called into the principal’s office for running an illegal business on the playground that I know of. So I think it’s just always been in me, it’s always been something that I’ve been interested in and excited about. And I scalped tickets when I was in college, when the Red Sox made it the World Series was a hell of a good bet. You know, I’ve been doing I’ve been hustling for a long time.

John Corcoran  6:30  

It’s funny how many guests I’ve had on this podcast that sold some form of gum or candy on the playground when they were in elementary school, and got in trouble for it and got called into, like the principal’s office for it. That’s a thing I didn’t know that was a thing. I’ve had a number of people have said that. Personally, I get called in the principal’s office, because I got caught pantsing someone on a dare that someone else told me to do so wasn’t quite as cool and make money off of that, unfortunately. So look, you got a couple other crazy stories from from running your company. So this is a great one, you gave someone the title of Employee of the Year, and then you fired them a month later.

Zac Cramer  7:10  

So you know, when I first started employing people, I was afraid of them. Right? I was terrified of the people that I was employing, I had never managed anybody in my life. I didn’t know how to do it. Right. And so I just, you know, was always worried that people were going to quit or whatever. And I had this one employee who was very, very, very dramatic, just everything was everything was a thing, right? Every time anything happened. And when I was thinking about employee of the year, and who to give it to, I thought, gosh, if I don’t give it to this person, they’re gonna freak out. Right? And then we’ll maybe they’ll quit, and I can’t afford to have them quit. Because if they quit, then I’m a bad manager. And I made a bad hire. And I can admit that I’m wrong about anything. So I’m gonna give them Employee of the Year. And I, I did, and within a month, they did something so heinous, that was actually not ignorable. And they became the very first person that I fired. And I, what I remember about that firing, besides being terrified of doing it is, when it was over, I tried to shake their hand, I tried to like reach across the table and shake their hand, and they swatted my hand away and got up and walked away. And it was just drama to the end. With that with that employee

John Corcoran  8:10  

Geez, what a painful experience. Another experience, you actually loaned a customer $100,000 So they can buy equipment from you. And well, they actually were in hospitality. And that was right before COVID hit to tell us a story.

Zac Cramer  8:28  

Oh yeah, well, so, uh, you know, it was we had a client, a fast growing chain of restaurants, very well funded, very successful, you know, written about in the news and whatnot. And, you know, they they asked us if we could fund some equipment for an expansion that they were doing. And so, you know, I looked at it and said, Well, this is a no brainer, I’m going to charge him good interest rate, you know, of course, I’m going to get paid back, nothing could possibly go wrong for this company. And it was it was about 18 months after we made that loan. COVID head and they still owed me, you know, 80 grand or something like that. It was just that moment of looking at the books and being like, Oh, my God, like, how, what did I not even think of here even a little bit and like, now I understand how banks, you know, have to think about risk. Because Holy cow, I could be about to lose all this money. And they did pull through with the help of all the restaurant guy revitalization funds and whatnot, but not because I was smart, because I got lucky. And that money didn’t default. It was it was a scary couple of months.

John Corcoran  9:20  

What else tell me about when COVID hit, obviously, that was top of mind. But were there any other big realizations, big aha moments, anything that you did in order to, you know, hold your clients code close, or give them extra support in order to retain your clients?

Zac Cramer  9:39  

Yeah, you know, for clients who were really hurting, we gave some discounts. You know, we did some deferrals of bills and things like that, you know, we basically reached out to every single client said, Hey, what do you need? How can we help you? Right? What is it? What is it that’s, that’s going to be important to you from us in this relationship, and by being really transparent with people and really open with people? We only lost one client throughout all of COVID We only have one client who decide they They couldn’t afford our services anymore. And everyone else, you know, as their businesses came back up, returned to full full pricing. So it was, it was a strategy to work.

John Corcoran  10:08  

Hmm. Now along the way you discover you belong to now EO entrepreneurs or organization, you also discovered EOS and now you’re an EOS implementer. I’ve had a number of different EOS experts on the show, including Gino Wickman, the creator of the concept Mark Winters, his co author. So we’ve talked about the concept before, but what drew you personally to EOS? How did you discover it? And it was from a leadership meeting gone wrong?

Zac Cramer  10:38  

Right. Yeah, you know, I tried to hold a quarterly leadership meeting because I was like, this is a thing we’re supposed to do. I don’t have to do it. But it’s like a thing companies do. We’re gonna, like have one. And we’re gonna, we’re gonna set some goals or something. And I didn’t really know what I was doing. And the meeting went really badly. It was, we went way over time. We just fought about stuff. We didn’t accomplish anything. And I was I was just frustrated after the meeting. And I’m like, why am I trying to figure this out? Right, somebody must have already figured out how to run a great meeting, right? This isn’t something that I should be inventing. And so I googled, you know, how do you run a great meeting? And it took me to the US website, and it was kind of those moments of like, oh, yeah, I’ve heard about this thing. You know, it’s in the air. It’s in the zeitgeist, people talk about EOS. Sometimes, I should look into this, and that I did what a lot of people do, which is I contacted someone who could implement it. And I said, How much does it cost? And then I said, Oh, my God, and I hung up the phone. And I bought the book traction, and just started doing a self implementation in my company. And it was, it worked so well, that I was just like, Oh, my God, I have to do this, like, this is so good. And so I became an implementer, myself and started helping out, you know, friends and other companies in my area, and just kind of, I call myself the accidental implementer. I didn’t really mean to, but it’s like, it’s too good of a system not to do it once you know it.

John Corcoran  11:50  

Yeah. And it’s a big chunk of your time. Now, you spent a lot of time helping other companies with this.

Zac Cramer  11:56  

Yeah, well, that’s, you know, one of the amazing things about us is that it works. So I went from working, you know, 50-60 hours a week in my IT company, you know, just barely getting everything done to working, I don’t know, like, probably 20-25 hours a week in the IT company, and we’re growing, and we’re making more money than ever. And you know, I don’t have to be there very much, because we have the systems and processes and people in place to run the company.

John Corcoran  12:16  

That’s amazing. That’s the dream everyone wants to achieve. And tell me about some of the different types of companies that you work with implementing EOS.

Zac Cramer  12:27  

What amazes me about my eos implementation work is how varied the clients who have come to me have been because it’s all referrals, just my friends talking my friends, and me talking to my friends and people, you know, coming out of the woodwork, so I don’t have a vertical or a niche. So I’ve worked with a company in Nashville that does facial treatments, you know, medical, medical spa treatments. You know, I’ve worked with restaurants here in Portland, I’ve worked with professional services companies, that the nice thing about EOS tools is they’re really generic, you know, they aren’t industry specific us doesn’t at all, try to tell you how to run what to do with your business. In fact, one of the things we say early on in the implementation processes, if you don’t know what your business is, and you don’t know what it does, then you’re actually not ready for us, you have to know what your product is, you have to know what your business is. And then EOS is going to help you run your business.

John Corcoran  13:12  

Yeah. And now one of the interesting things about EOS to me is that or rather about being an implementer for EOS is that it kind of goes against some of the trainings around a business because you want a client that’s gonna stick around for a long period of time. But the idea behind an implementer is that you come in, you help a company for a short period of time two to three years, and then you’re done. And they’re on their own, you train them to be on their own. And maybe that’s just the ethos, maybe it’s just because it’s not your first business. It’s something you’re more passionate about. But how do you rectify those two things? On the one hand, you know, you’re, you know, you stand for building a business that is long term, long term clients, great client value that comes in on the other hand, you you know that as if you done your job, well, then the client eventually is going to not need you.

Zac Cramer  14:03  

Yeah, um, so EOS has an ethic of abundance. And the idea that there are far more companies that need Eos, then there are EOS implementers and so with that mindset, I don’t worry about where the next client is coming from or three even will be a next client both because I don’t need any more clients actually have as many as I can handle right now. And also because what I have found is that the more people talk about and hear about EOS are they want to do it so it’s just it’s just an ever growing i i feel like i sound a little bit like somebody who’s Hawking vacuums on the corner right now. If you buy a vacuum all your friends buy a vacuum but no, like it’s a really good system for running a business and it hasn’t been that widely implemented yet. You know, we’ve only got I don’t I think it’s like eight or 9000 companies that have been implemented EOS. There’s millions of companies in the country. So you know, the, the number who needed is vastly beyond the number who have it.

John Corcoran  14:54  

Right? Yeah. And then talk about how you got into EO, how that ended up being something with the impact If that’s been for your business,

Zac Cramer  15:02  

oh, man, I mean, what I what I what I always tell people is without EO, I would be Zac Cramer, the bus driver with a lot of debt. EO saved me. I mean, there was there was my business was going, absolutely not going to survive without EO. I found EO because I was walking to work one day, and I walk past the window of an eel member company. And I looked in the window and they had a slide up on their projector for the Entrepreneurs Organization. And I walked in to the to the business because I’m very this is sort of my style. I said, I’m so sorry. I don’t mean interrupt. I don’t know what that what’s going on here. But as Entrepreneurs Organization, what is that, and a member of EO Portland, bless him, stepped out of the meeting and came and talked to me and told me about EO and I joined the accelerator program. But yeah, that was the that was how I got into it was just walking by somebody’s window.

John Corcoran  15:50  

That’s the first time I’ve heard that kind of story. That’s, that’s really cool. I didn’t even know that you’d graduated from accelerator which I participated in as well for three years and graduated from tell us a little about for those who aren’t familiar with it, how that helped you to graduate and what that means graduating course gets the seven figures in revenue.

Zac Cramer  16:09  

Yeah, I mean, EO accelerator is the best, I can’t recommend it highly enough, I recommend it to almost every business owner that I run into the biggest thing that eo the accelerator program brought me besides the learning days and the actual knowledge they give you because they do there’s trainings, and they give you lots of practical useful knowledge of how to run your business. But it was the first time in my life that I was in a room with a lot of other business owners. And so all of a sudden, I wasn’t alone anymore. I wasn’t on an island anymore. It wasn’t me versus my employees anymore. Nobody asked any questions of, you know, I made some of my best friends in my life in my adult life in the accelerator program, who are still very close friends today. I mean, it was it was, you know, trial by fire in the program. You’re all small, you’re all hungry, you’re all learning, you’re all growing. And it just it creates bonds, you know that the last a lifetime?

John Corcoran  16:57  

Yeah. Now let’s talk about how to business. So you know, you’ve done an IT company, you’ve done a computer services company, you’ve done us implementation, why a online publishing company sharing all all that hard fought information that you should be charging someone for instead of giving away for free?

Zac Cramer  17:14  

Um, you know, honestly, it’s because a couple of things happened. One is I realized that almost everybody who could afford to pay me for business advice, because iOS implementation is not cheap. With somebody like me, they were they were a white man. And they were usually fairly privileged. And I wanted to be able to share my wisdom more widely than that, just that sort of small cohort. And then the other thing is, I noticed that I just kept getting the same question. You know, people would ask me over and over again, how do I raise my prices? How do I fire somebody, you know, what, what are the what is the right way to hire somebody. And like I mentioned before, kind of having a belief in abundance, I don’t think that if I give it all away, that there’s gonna be no more for me, right? I’m not like, Oh, if I just give it all the way, then I’m gonna go broke or anything like that, like, that’s not how the world works. That’s not how things work. The more we give, the more we get. And so by putting it all out there for free, and I should say, I tried to find somebody else doing it first. I mean, I didn’t lightly dive into Oh, I’m just gonna start this thing. But the business advice that’s out there for free is just terrible. I mean, if you just Google things, they’re just awful. It’s links to Quora forums, where clearly nobody’s ever done any of these things in their lives. Or it’s all these teaser articles where they’re like, you know, here’s 2% of this and call us and pay us for more. And so I was really responding to the need, right, which is, I realized, it’s just not out there. There aren’t, there isn’t good business advice out there for people who aren’t at the point where they can afford to hire a professional business person, right to give them that kind of advice. So, Heck, I’ve got enough money, I’m gonna make it, I’m gonna hire the people. I’m gonna hire the designer and the web developer, and you know, the editor and all that other stuff. And we’re just gonna go and do it.

John Corcoran  18:48  

And is this something where you figure you know, we’ll work on building in and then we’ll figure out a business model later? Or do you see this plugging into your current businesses?

Zac Cramer  18:57  

No, this is what I’m really excited about. So ever since I was, you know, the second or third grade, everything for me has been about how am I gonna make money on it? Right, you know, whether it’s my IT company, or the real estate development that I do, or the Airbnb is that I run or the EOS implementation that I do, everything has been what’s my profit angle? And what’s so fun for me on this one is because people ask me this question a lot. My web developers are how you can, I don’t have to write, I can just do what I want without thinking for even a second about whether or not you could ever make any money on it. I’m not gonna make money on that I lose money on it. I spent $15,000. So far, having the website developed and built and having the content that I wrote, edited, you know, to make it be good, and that’s just lost. It’s not lost, it’s invested. Right? And I’m gonna spend you know, another who knows couple 1000 bucks a year, right, hosting it and reading more articles and having them edited and having are created for them. And I just don’t have to care. And it’s so nice to not have to care for once how something is going to make me money.

John Corcoran  19:51  

Yeah, well, I’ve observed you inside of slack communities and you’re very proficient in your advice. And actually, that’s a bad word in the EO world to say advice giving, but experience sharing really. You don’t hold back like you you will, you’ll share your experience, liberally. So I can see how that would be a good medium for you where you can share your writing more publicly with a global audience.

Zac Cramer  20:18  

Yeah, and you know, that slack channel is a good example, right to be in that slack channel, you have to already have a million dollar business. Yeah, right. And so it’s like, we can all commiserate with each other in that channel. And it’s wonderful. And we all get help from that. I don’t want to dismiss that at all. But what is you know, what happens to the first generation person who’s no one in their family has ever run a business before? And they’re just like, I want to start? Where do they go? You know, where do they get the advice they need? You know, how do they get the basic information beyond whether or not they should be an LLC? Right to just start a business?

John Corcoran  20:46  

Right, right. 10 tips for this is how you do XYZ or Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There’s a lot of stuff like that. I want to wrap things up with the question I always asked, which is, you know, I’m a big fan of gratitude. And you’ve been involved in a number of different communities, EO Eos, you know, IT services. If you look around at your peers and your and your contemporaries, however you want to define that, who do you respect? Who do you admire who are people that you’d want to just kind of call out publicly and say, I really appreciate you for what you’ve done to help me along the way.

Zac Cramer  21:17  

I’m going to give all my love to my EO forum members. So these are the people that I meet with on a monthly basis and have for many years, other other business owners in the EO Portland community, and who keep me sane, and who are some of the most important people in my in my life. And I’m going to give a call out to Scott Simon who owns Voicebox Karaoke. Bill Kerrigan, who owns 3 Mountains Plumbing, Paul Backett, who owns a Evolve Collaborative, Arielle Weedman, who owns Weedman Design Partners, and Randy Wakerlin, who owns Solmate Socks, because they are and have been some of the most important people in my life for a very long time. And I’m deeply grateful to all of them.

John Corcoran  21:56  

It is amazing when you when you list them all the diversity of the different types of businesses you just listed, right there. All kinds of types of businesses, but all gathering together to get together get get better together.

Zac Cramer  22:11  

Yes, absolutely. 100%

John Corcoran  22:13  

Yeah. Zac, this has been great. Where can people go to learn more about you and, you know, connect with you?

Zac Cramer  22:17  

Well, they can go to howtobusiness.com and they can read cool articles about how to run businesses, which is super exciting. Or they’re welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn. I always like it when non robots connect with me. I mean, I get so many robots that it’s nice to get a real person every once in a while. Or you know, send me an email or give me a call. I’m pretty available. You know, I don’t have to have a secretary or anything because you can just get get to me.

John Corcoran  22:38  

Tell you heard him. When you reach out on LinkedIn. Tell him you heard him on Smart Business Revolution. Alright, Zac, thanks so much. Awesome. Thanks.

Outro  22:46  

Thanks for listening to the Rising Entrepreneurs Podcast. This episode is powered by Rise 25 Please subscribe and check out future episodes.