Building High-Performing Teams From the Inside Out With Sean Patton, President of No Limit Leaders

Sean Patton: 12:25

Well, there’s two things that come to mind. First, for me, one is the vision question like, are you clear on what even your your team’s vision is? Because it’s really hard to follow someone without a clear vision. It’s hard to lead your own lead yourself without clear vision of where you’re going. Right.

So is that really clear or is that vague? And what I have found with my coaching, executive coaching clients and things like that in organizations is that vagueness is a very handy avoidance tool. It’s a very good way to let yourself off the hook by not being very specific and about what you’re trying to accomplish and what you’re about, and what the mission is and what the standard is. And if it’s kind of like we’re just doing our best around here, we’re trying to hit these numbers or we’re trying to do whatever. It’s all right.

Like that is for yourself and your team. Often an avoidance technique to put yourself on the hook and hold yourself accountable. And so getting really clear and stating that like this is everyone’s very has clarity around what this team is about and what you’re about and what the vision is. So that’s number one. And the second thing is I would sit down either with the team or, and, and, or one on one and start to lead with vulnerability and get feedback on, hey, this is how I’m seeing it.

I don’t think I’ve been the best leader, right? We have to go first as leaders and we have to show vulnerability first. And trust and respect has to go down an organization before it ever comes up to leaders step in like they’re not doing what I say. They don’t respect me. They don’t trust you.

Like, do you trust them? Do you respect them because it has to go down first. It will never come up. And so if you show up and say, I trust and respect you, and I may not have been the end, let me be vulnerable. I may not have been the best manager or leader of you, and I’m trying to be better.

So I’m welcome. I’m open to your feedback. Let me let me know how I could best serve you. And I want to hear why you’re here. Like, why are you in this role?

What what are your goals here? Because I know you mentioned all your leadership roles you’ve had in the organization you’ve been a part of. And so, you know, well, you know as well as I do that, like, not everyone has the same motivations. Not everyone has the same goals, right? Some people are money motivated, some people aren’t as much.

Some people, it’s flexibility. Sometimes it’s man, you know, my this is the last season I’ve got my my youngest at home in high school. And I want to make the baseball games. They start at 430. Awesome.

How can we work together to make that happen for you? But if you don’t ask and have that conversation, you’re just like, man, why is why is Chad pissed off this? You know, this fall, I don’t understand what’s going on. Like, well, maybe I’ll throw more money at him. You don’t care about more money.

You don’t want to go see your son play baseball. Yeah, but you got to have that conversation. And the magic happens when you create vision. And then you have a one on one conversation and find out what, how, what role they want to like, why are they here? What’s their motivation, what’s their vision.

And then align them. And then if you align organizational vision with personal vision and then you support them in accomplishing that. You’re off to the races and you want to take a step further. You’ve got someone who doesn’t have vision, and you’re going to help them establish what that looks like, and then you’re going to support them in like, this is the first time anyone’s actually, there’s so many adults out there that no one has ever sat down and just looked them and been like, what do you want out of life? How can I help you do it?

Yeah, and you can be that person.

Chad Franzen: 16:06

Huge. What? So, you know, I’m sure maybe. Maybe young, young leaders, they get they get hired as a in a leadership position. They say I’m looking forward to building my leadership skills, which probably does happen.

You probably build leadership skills, but how important is are those compared to maybe mindset in general?

Sean Patton: 16:24

Oh great question. So I love the fact that you asked that because in coaching we and in leadership, we sort of think of these three components of vision, strategy and mindset and how they have to align. And so I love the fact you brought up mindset because sort of independent, right? Like you can have a vision without a good strategy or good mindset. Good luck.

You can have a good strategy with. But if you don’t have a good vision or, you know, you could have even two of the three and you can sort of limp along, but without the third, you don’t really unlock the power of of those things. And so when it comes to mindset, I’m going to I’m going to give you a powerful framework here. Okay. So most people think this way.

And I know it’s my default to maybe this relate to you. They think and do have be. So they think I’m going to do these things. Okay. So call that strategy things I’m going to do.

And then I’m going to have a result. Call that vision okay I’m going to have a result. And then I get to be a certain way. Then I get to be fulfilled. Then I get to be confident.

Then I get to be the leader that I want to be. And here’s the thing is like, that actually works. That works. You can you can do some things, you can get a result and you can become a different person or be a different way of being. And then you can start over from a different place.

You can do it again and you can get linear results. So if you’re looking for your life to get like, I’m going to get 1% better this year or 5% this year, that works. It’s it’s it works. Now there’s some real problems with that because what happens is if you’re acting, you’re doing from the past, you’re doing from the current state, not future state. So if we flip that all around, we flip that around instead of do have be if we go to be do have.

So we move to okay let’s first let’s establish the have the vision like where are we want to head. What’s that. We call it a generative future. Like what is the future we’re going to create okay. And then we set that.

But then once we have that, we know where we’re going. We say, who is that person? So if you say, you know, I’m going to I’m a new leader. And I just stepped into this management role, it’s actually a perfect example. And I can bring up a military example in a moment is I’ll just go right to it.

So when I was a new platoon leader or I was a platoon leader, and usually at 12 months, you and your platoon leader time get a year as a platoon leader. But at a year we deployed to Iraq. So not going to switch you out right when you get when you deploy to combat. So I got another like 6 or 7 months and I was getting ready and I got selected to take over the sniper platoon. And so we had a brand new lieutenant who was coming in, and his first job was going to be running a platoon in combat.

His first, you know, with, with trade off of the training. And so I was writing him a letter of my lessons from my time to help him out. And the end of that letter, I said, look, there’s going to be times you’re not going to know what to do. You’re not going to know the tactical answer or the people answer or whatever, but all you can do is close your eyes and think about the platoon leader that you want to follow. Put yourself in that soldier’s shoes and be like, when the crap hits the fan, who do you want to look over and see on the side of the radio?

Who is that person? And then you just open your eyes and be that person. And that’s what this exercise is. So you can think about, create that vision of what you want your team to be and what and what you want to accomplish in all of those things, like the vision you have for your future. Then you start acting like that person.

Now you embody that person now. And so now you’re being first, right? And you’re getting messy and doing the work and being and then you’re doing as future self, you’re doing as ideal self, not doing as current self. And so you get exponential results. That’s how you get transformational results is instead of I’m going to do some things that I’m going to have the result, and then I get to be a certain way, I get to be happy, I get to be fulfilled.

I get to have whatever it is. Switch it up and go be. Do you have set your vision as to have? But then think of the way of being, the mindset of just who is that person? How does that person act?

And then do it now. And when you do that, you’ll have exponential results.

Chad Franzen: 20:57

Very nice, very nice. What would you say? You know, you talk to a lot of leaders, maybe even in very high positions. What would you say are are their common challenges that business leaders face today or that any leaders face today?

Sean Patton: 21:14

Yeah, depending on the size of the company and the level. You have legacy culture. Like what we see a lot right now, I would say is especially I guess it’s maybe this is just like my clientele that I work with. I work with, I would say a lot of a lot of leaders who are assuming that top level leadership. Right.

Maybe they’re Gen X or millennial or something like that, right? They’re either like 40s or early 50s, something like that. And they’ve risen through the ranks by developing, working on themselves, by bringing in great culture, by like, all these ways of thinking and ways of being. And now they’re like taking the reins of maybe an antiquated sort of you mentioned like management versus leadership style before. Right?

More of a transactional style. Show up, do your job, get your paycheck, go home. And they’re wondering, how do I how do I shift that? How do I change that? And what I would say is that what they’re usually worried about is up to that point, to kind of rise through the ranks is they’ve done so with incremental change.

I’m going to change a couple things. I’m going to tweak this. I’m going to tweak that, make it a little better. Don’t rock the boat because I’m in the middle of this big ship. So I’m just gonna do a couple little things right.

And when you get up to that level, they’re used to making these little small tweaks and changes and being like tactical. And it’s that switch to that permission. That change can actually happen faster than you think. Like when you get to that level and you’re empowered, you can full stop, step up and be like, hey, we were this way. And that was fine.

And that got us here. But our new vision is out here. And to get there, we’re going to have to be different. And here’s how it’s going to happen. And then enroll people in that and get them thrilled and excited and like, give your permission to take big swings and step into that.

And I that’s what I see in terms of leaders today, because I feel like there’s a bit of a generational change at the very senior levels of organizations right now. So that’s one. I mean, other issues are if we’re getting like real businessy is there’s a lot of like PE investment and firms or public firms where there’s a lot of pressure on hitting numbers and PNL in the short term, as opposed to a company that maybe has a longer term outlook of how they’re of how they’re trying to run the company, like how they’re trying to accomplish things over a larger timeline. And so they’re feeling the squeeze of that. That’s a challenge that I see a lot of people wrestle with.

And then, of course, it wouldn’t be a business podcast if we didn’t say AI. Right? So AI is a problem, not a problem, but it’s an issue that everyone is wrestling with of what is right for our company. And what’s the future look like? And it really does create a bit of an existential.

Thought process on people and profit. Right? Like why? Why do you exist as a company? Are you, are you, are you a is the reason you exist as a company is to have like three owners and a bunch of robots and print money, like, okay, that’s cool, you know?

Or are you, where are you trying to solve a problem in society and create a culture that makes that helps people have fulfilling meaningful work and creates community? Like those are different visions, and I’m not necessarily one is like I’m not necessarily moralizing or judging, but I think there’s a lot of leaders wrestling with what is the vision, what is the what is the future of this organization that I want to create. And so it makes them a little Because they don’t have clarity there. They’re a little unsure about how do I move forward and what and what are our values and how are we going to conduct business. And so they’re wrestling with those things.

Chad Franzen: 25:35

So let’s say let’s say you are the leader that let’s say somebody is the leader that you described. You know, this this person walks into the room and everybody gets quiet because they oh, he’s here now, you know, or she’s here now or whatever. And, you know, you’ve got a mission, you’ve got a strategy, you’ve got it all down and people are ready to follow you. And the people want to follow you and you do it and it doesn’t work. Like whatever you did didn’t work.

How can a leader. How should a leader respond in that situation?

Sean Patton: 26:06

It should be. I’m trying to think the right word for this. Direct, vulnerable, honest and. Have a plan. So what I mean by that is.

If you if you do anything other than that, if you come in and say if you try to sweep it under the rug, everyone knows what you’re doing and you’ve just lost trust. Right. If you. So if you try to pass blame to other things and pass the buck, you’re going to lose trust and respect. Right.

And and if you just come in and start just changing things without acknowledging the elephant in the room, that’s a problem. And if you come in and be like, yeah, this is we’re all screwed up and I got no ideas, you know, like, I don’t I don’t know why. I don’t know what the next thing is. That was my swing, you know. Also a problem.

So I say all that which can sound like a lot, but without my argument, would be that if you created a culture that said, hey, we’re going to take big swings, we’re going to go for it. We’re making these assumptions and we’ve explained the why based on this belief structure, on these assumptions. We think this is the right way to go, and we’re going to go for it. And then if it doesn’t work, you can come back and say, oh, that didn’t work because this is or this is why we think it didn’t work. And because of that, here’s our new here’s our new strategy.

And what I have found both in the military and in business is that if you create a if you create a learning organization that is constantly and has it’s constantly trying to learn from mistakes and is constantly and has systems and structures to do things like give feedback, like a lot, you know, we you, you finish a project and it’s what went right, what didn’t, regardless of outcome. If that is just like a part of your process, right. If we’re having a meeting and it’s like we’re not just talking about the numbers you hit, but we’re saying, all right, Chad, you know, this month, here are the things you did. Well, here’s the things you didn’t do. Well, what about for me?

What did I what do you think I could how could I improve as a leader and the expectations you’re going to like, if that is just a constant thing, you’ve created a learning organization and then it’s not going to throw off the the whole company that you tried something big and it didn’t work. You’re like, yeah, that’s what we always do. You always try things and we learn from them and we get better. And here’s how we’re going to get better from this and move forward. So I would just say creating that learning culture starts with the courage to create a culture of feedback.

Be direct, be open and honest and accept responsibility or accept, you know, hey, I made the assumption I was wrong and here’s why and here’s what I’m going to do about it. And then you’re going to move forward. Then you’ll find that that actually draws people to you and they’re ready to go to bat again.

Chad Franzen: 29:17

Yeah. Nice. Nice. So let’s say you’re you’re in charge of it. You’re in charge of a group where everybody’s very experienced and skilled and talented and very good at what they do.

Is it possible to still not be a high performing team, and if so, how do you kind of build that rather than just be a group of talented people?

Sean Patton: 29:37

Not only is it possible, but I think that. I have seen that multiple like in multiple places. Right. Like I don’t think it’s I don’t think that’s uncommon that, you know, that that scenario you just brought out. And.

So is your question. Let me rephrase your question is.

Chad Franzen: 30:00

What how does a leader, you know, shape a group of talented people into a high performing team? How do you build a high performing team?

Sean Patton: 30:06

Love it. So let me I’m gonna I’m gonna answer that question. And let me tell you what I’ve seen firsthand with clients It is. There’s this assumption. Say someone shows up and you’re the new CEO, right?

So Chad’s the new CEO and you’ve got the C-suite. And this assumption that like, well, they got it. Like they’re my peers. They’ve been doing this for 25 years. Like they know what they’re doing.

And and then you let yourself off the hook from actually leading them. And the reality is, like everyone deserves great leadership, no matter how senior or how talented they are. They deserve great leadership. And someone who’s going to do all the things we just said, no matter how long they’ve been in the role, no matter how experienced they are, they deserve someone who’s going to come and give them honest feedback, who’s going to pour into them, who’s going to reflect back to them on, hey, here’s what I’m seeing from you. This is this is what I’m seeing from you.

This is where I think you can improve this. This is how you’re coming across to me. Is that how you’re intending to come across? Because half the time you’re not right. You’re like, oh, I didn’t know.

I didn’t mean to come across as like, I know it all or that I’m not interested in your opinion. That’s not what I meant. Oh, well, that’s how it occurs to me. Let’s see if that occurs to other people. Right.

So where this happens is. When the amount of times I’ve shown up for like a leadership training. Right. Because we want to we want to create better leaders. We want to create better leadership culture.

And then it doesn’t even matter. The VP, the CEO, whoever it is, somebody. Right. Chief HR, he does this great intro. Here’s Sean Patton.

He’s from no. He’s going to do this whole thing. All right guys pay attention. And they walk out the door and I’m like, wait a second. Like like this is for them.

You know, instead of participating as a team, that’s what I know that what you’re talking about is absolutely happening. So a lot of times it’s very talented people rose to a certain level because they are so individually talented. And it’s literally the definition of sort of the classic business school case of the Peter principle, right? That everyone gets promoted to their level of incompetency that you get. And, and and so you may be very technically good, but when you step into those very senior roles.

Right. You’re at a different level of leadership. There’s I like to think of leadership in terms of three levels tactical, operational and strategic. It’s the three levels of warfare. And it’s like that for a reason.

So tactical is implementing things within a particular like so-called division of a company. So for for simplicity’s sake, we’ll call that sales. Right. So as you move up to all the way to we’ll call it director of sales. You’re being told, hey, here’s what we’re all doing out here, and here’s your role and it’s to drive this number.

And you go drive that number and you do it at different levels. It’s all tactical level leadership. And that’s like one type of leadership. And then there’s strategic level leadership, which is the senior folks. Their job is to look up and out right.

Like what’s going on in the world. What is the problem we solve? What’s going to come at us? What how are we going to play in this thing? And like, who are we going to be in that way?

And then there’s this key level of like V in in between that. Some people call it cross-functional leaders or whatever it might be, but their job is to translate the strategic vision and break it up and make these different pieces all work together. And so this this pertains to your question, because what you’ll find is like someone is a very good tactical level leader in one of those departments, whether it’s like it or whatever it is. And they’re very good at that one thing. And then that gets them all the way to the top, and then they’re there long enough.

All of a sudden they find themselves in that operational level role or that C-suite level role. And you have this team of people who are all individually good at their own things, but don’t cross talk and work together. And so I would say that’s the critical time to do the foundational work that we described earlier of invest in them one on one in leadership, and then bring them together and make sure that they connect outside of their job function. And they are very aware, like everyone on that team should know, that personal motivations and goals and vision that everyone has on, on on that team too. And they should be supporting them in accomplishing that.

And if you think that that’s just like not your role because they’ve got their crap together, because they’ve been here for 30 years and so like they’ll figure it out and that you don’t think that like building a cohesive unit and team and developing relationship and developing them and giving them critical feedback like they don’t deserve to continue to grow because they’ve been here for 35 years. They deserve to continue to grow. And just because you’re younger or maybe have less years or they have more years than you, that doesn’t mean that you still don’t have the moral imperative to lead them. If you’re in that role, like the number one thing all the way back to like, Ranger School, cold, wet and hungry and tired on on the ground and you got put in charge like wouldn’t charge take charge. Like if you’re in charge, take charge.

Chad Franzen: 35:42

You are the you’re a great podcast guest. You’re also the host of the No Limit Leadership podcast. What? Tell me a little bit about that. What do you like about it the most?

Sean Patton: 35:56

The I mean, I love I love how much I learn and I feel like I’m cheating, right? Like I’m cheating by having these great guests in and hearing because I feel like I have I have a good, have a good mix of. Actually, I joined and I work with this this firm called Novus Global. Great people. I’ve had some of them on.

So I work with other awesome like coaches or consultants. And then I also have, you know, the thought leaders on who are like deep in research in one area. And then I’ll have those. And I love having, you know, current operational level leaders. So kind of the conversation you’re having like, all right, you’re really in it right now.

Like, what are you seeing and what is working and what mistakes did you make. And so I get so many insights. So I love that I love learning. I feel like I’m cheating in a sense. Being able to hear what all these people get to say.

And it’s funny, you know, one of the reasons I started the podcast a few years ago was I started getting into higher levels of coaching, and I realized that two of the most important skill sets were being a great listener and asking great questions. And I realized I kind of sucked at both. And so I was like, I’m gonna start a podcast and I’m gonna you know, this is actually a kind of a meta example and maybe outside your question, but I think it may be relevant to the listeners I recognized. Here’s these critical skill sets that I’m not great at. But to accomplish my vision, I want to be good at them.

And if I just tried to use my own willpower to like, read, read more books and like talk to some people, like maybe instead what you can do is set up structure in your lives. So like I set up a structure, I set up a podcast, I got, I hired people, I invested money, I put myself on the hook, I started bringing people on that thing. And I just like, I’m going to do this and I’m going to put it out publicly. And all of a sudden I’ve created a condition where, like, I have to get better at this, like I’m at least going to get reps, I’m at least going to get reps, and I’m on the hook for it. So like now I’m even more interested in, like, how do I study other people interviewing and how do I get better at this, this one thing.

And, you know, one of the topics I talk about on stages and I work with people, individuals and organizations on is on discipline, whether it’s organizational discipline or self-discipline. And so this is just a chance to bring that up of like self-discipline is not just it’s not about willpower or making your suffering every day. Just pull yourself up and just, you know, David Goggins in yourself, you know, look at yourself in the mirror and calling yourself names until you’re ready to do some do something like, that’s not what it’s about. And even at that elite level, like those elite teams, like Green Beret team, that’s not what it’s about. It’s about disciplines, about design, and it’s about creating a system around you that makes the right thing the easy thing.

And that’s in a sense, that’s what I did with podcasting, is I set up a thing where it was like, now it’s going to be harder for me to not do the thing that I need to do that I don’t really want to do. And it started with that, and it just sort of like blossomed into, like one of my favorite things to do.

Chad Franzen: 39:01

Sure. So what has there been like an interview that you’ve had, that you learned something that was particularly memorable or particularly eye opening that that you can share with us?

Sean Patton: 39:11

Oh gosh, there’s been so, so many. I interviewed Harry Allen, who is the CFO of Belmont University here in Nashville, and he’s also the co-founder of a bank he co-founded, a bank with some other people, like in his mid 30s. And now it’s like multi-billion dollar like and in a, in a revolutionary sort of way. It’s called studio Bank. And they do things a little differently, and they really focus on entrepreneurs and small business owners, and especially in the creative space.

Anyway, kind of a very like entrepreneurial, sort of innovative way to attack attack banking, which is not the most innovative place to be usually. Right. So like his approach to solving things differently and, and, and the innovative approach he’s bringing to higher education. We had a very interesting conversation around like, what is the future of higher education when it comes to things like AI, when the the political pressures on that, how do you stay relevant and how he’s like bringing this entrepreneurial like, experimental view to higher education? That was one that was really, really interesting.

And I have to plug I have to plug recent ones because they’ve been really good. Last week I had the Joseph King Barkley on who we know is Jkb, who is a senior coach at Novus Global and is the president of like their training institute. And we had a really great conversation on this on way of being. And I opened up to him that with my clients and myself, I default to doing so. A lot of times I’ll have a client where it’s like, I know they need to change their mindset and way of being, but once we get kind of messy and into it, my natural tendency is to be like, all right, but like, what are we going to do about it?

Like, let’s be hard, you know, let’s make a list, let’s do stuff and kind of pull myself out of it. And he really talked me through that. That was cool. And this week, just today, which I know, I don’t know when it’s going to come out, but this is Monday, January 19th. We’re recording right now.

It’s a really fun interview with Sean Henry, who is the president and CEO of the Nashville Predators NHL team. Yeah, and he’s got a he has like he’s like this guy from like Long Island, New York with like these funny stories from like, the boardwalk and coming up through the ranks of the Detroit Pistons. And so he’s kind of like he’s got really, like, really good insights from somebody who’s just done it for a long time.

Chad Franzen: 41:41

So final question for you, we’ve talked a lot about what goes into being a good leader. What advice would you give to emerging leaders? Maybe like we talked about people who are who are younger or even people who are very experienced, very skilled and now are in a position where, okay, I’ve got people following me. What do I do?

Sean Patton: 42:03

I would say first it would be to ask for you actually mentioned this before. Like how how other people how you occur to other people, like how they see you. So I would immediately request feedback and get really honest because my guess is. The way you think that you’re occurring to other people and coming across and the way they’re perceiving you are different and not necessarily bad or worse or better. Like it could be, who knows.

My guess is, though, that that’s not accurate. That’s the assumption I’m making. And so get a very clear picture of of current reality one. Then take some time to reflect on what I mentioned before of like who is the manager and leader you want to be? I would encourage you to work to the point where you’re creating like a one page leadership philosophy of just like what you believe now and what your values are and what matters to you, and then use that as like a living, breathing document over time, but getting your thoughts out of your head and sort of like ethereal and get them into this is actually what matters.

Because when people ask you, you’re going to be able to once you write that, what you’ll find is it’s like writing a book, right? Book over here. Like once you do that, you just find those words just come out of you easier. Right. And so you have this consistent voice.

And so you’re coming across more consistent to people because you’ve sort of codified it. Those would be the, you know, the two things I can think of. And then the other one would be, you know, if you’re a brand new emerging leader. Is don’t be is don’t be afraid to get messy. Now, like the mistake, the mistake is playing it safe and not wanting to look stupid and not not wanting to look like you don’t know what you’re doing and not volunteering to get up and present or be a part of a big project, or hop on with a big client now because you’re like, well, I’m just going to hide here.

Like I’ve got a good thing going, man. And then what’s going to happen is you’re going to get you’re not going to develop and you’re going to still make the mistake and it’s going to be at a much higher level. So like get messy now. Volunteer for the presentation. Mess it up.

You’re going to feel awful. You’re going to feel like your world is crumbling because you messed up the morning like presentation. And in a week, no one’s going to remember it. But you’re going to have gotten better because you got the rep and your peers didn’t.

Chad Franzen: 44:17

Nice. Yeah. That’s good. That’s good advice. I could see how the tendency might be to do the opposite, but how the benefit would be from doing that.

Hey, Sean, it was fantastic talking to you. Thanks so much for all of your insights and sharing your experiences and things like that with us was awesome. Thanks so much.

Sean Patton: 44:34

Thanks, Chad. Appreciate it. It’s been great.

Chad Franzen: 44:36

So long, everybody.

Outro: 44:37

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