Chad Franzen 9:25
When you back in 2002 when you started the company prior to that, what had you been doing? And what kind of led you to break out on your own?
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 9:33
Yeah, so back then I’ll back up one before then. So I started my marketing career out of my MBA at University of Chicago and and concentrated in marketing and finance, actually, because at University Chicago, you can’t like not do finance there because that’s what they specialize in. So I knew I wanted to do marketing, but I did the finance anyway. So then I went to a large ad agency in Chicago called Leo Burnett. That’s part of the Cool ces group today. And I did that for about 11 12 years. And it was right out of that, that I started Noetic. So what happened was somewhat situational, actually. So I made a move for family reasons from Chicago, back to the DC area, DC was where I had lived for undergrad. And when I got here, I actually initially and it was very avant garde at the time, I commuted back and forth, my job was still in Chicago, and I lived here, nobody was doing that back then. But I was doing that very much more common today. And then, you know, I ultimately determined that it was not sustainable in the, in the long term to be doing that every week. And so, you know, I really looked around, and in the DC market, at least at that time, I didn’t really see a lot of opportunities to do what I loved best, which was really in the research and strategy space. So I decided to take on some project work and just see how that would go. My very first client was my old employer, who hired me straightaway. And I like to say, you know, some people talk about angel investors, you know, I think there’s Angel clients, like when you’re trying to start a business, one of the things I say to people is, get a client, because when you get a client, then you know, if there’s a there there, and you also can pay the bills, because someone’s paying you, and then you start to have those stories and those experiences that can help you then, you know, leverage to sell more and add more value to others. So it started out of really, you know, that like, necessity breeds invention, I was like, I need to work I want to work. I don’t really see it here. So I’ll make it up.
Chad Franzen 11:52
So which came first for you, the client or the job or the business? Or they come together?
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 11:58
Almost, like completely together? Yeah, I didn’t work for just a couple months to get settled. And in between, and so I’m looking and I’m thinking, and then I had this angel client who was just knocking on the door knocking on the door. And I was like, Yeah, this, this seems like what I’m doing. I do think it was probably two years in when I said, Okay, this is this is actually, I think, sustainable. And let’s really lean into making it, you know, a business and not just project work. And that’s when I got a little bit more, you know, organized about it all.
Chad Franzen 12:38
So you kind of had you started the business and had a client that kind of came together. What about your second client? Was that more difficult to get? Or how did you kind of like build your client base?
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 12:49
Yeah, great question. So I built my client base, slowly over time, but then I watched it at a certain point like that flywheel, you know, I watched it start to exponentiated at a certain point. So in those early years, I did a lot of networking and a lot of help and kindness in the market. And you know, getting the word out and really staying close to so many of my former colleagues. So I, in addition to my former employer, I did a handful of efforts for some smaller companies, a couple of nonprofits. And then I got significant work from discovery. And for many years discovery was an anchor client. For us, we did research and brand work for them on every one of the networks. So this is, you know, pre merger, acquisition, merger acquisition. So at the time, they had about 12 networks. And for many years, they were a mainstay for us. And that enabled me to do that diversification to start to, you know, add on significant other organizations. And, and that’s when I started to see that flywheel really start to take off.
Chad Franzen 14:07
So how did you kind of, you know, work your way up to getting with discovery is a big name. But you’ve also as I mentioned, in your introduction, you know, Pepsi, Nike, Marriott, Mayo Clinic, has you kind of make yourself aware, make them aware of you.
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 14:24
Relationships, it really all came down to relationships. So one of the things in this business that is really good to avoid, if you can, is competitive bidding. Not that you can avoid it completely. But competitive bidding is it lessens your chance of you know, getting any particular engagement. And so, the warmer the relationship is from the start the better chance that someone is going to have that faith to hire you. So I could probably like draw a map. When I think about you know, Marriott, Nike, Samsung, Georgetown University, you know, all the different Heinz we’ve had over the years, back to the relationships, many of them started at my former employer, many of them came about through discovery, you know, then those people go on to other places. And then as the years go by, you start getting referred by people who know people that you know. So it starts getting, you know, more out there. And sometimes, you know, truly just through our marketing, and you know, being out in the marketplace, but I do think that we got in with many of those big names because of the warm relationships. And then, you know, once you have that experience, it is it is valued. You know, big organizations realize that you know, how to come into a big organization, get up the learning curve, and add value. So I think there’s, there’s a trust factor that comes in there.
Chad Franzen 15:51
What have been maybe some of the biggest turning points, then in the lifespan of Noetic Consultants.
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 15:57
Yeah, 21 years, a long time. I think one really significant turning point was about like, I kind of look at the company and chapters, when we were probably 10 or so years old. We took on a system called EOS. I don’t know if you’re familiar, or for, you know, listeners who aren’t familiar, it’s the Entrepreneurial Operating System. And it’s basically a strategic framework that businesses can use to really set your vision and where you’re trying to go like your one year three or 10 year plan. And then where it’s really powerful as it helps you break it down into quarterly goals that help you get traction against, you know, the longer term goals. So I came upon this right around the time that I was like, okay, you know, we’re having success here. But how do we really grow, and what, you know, I’m, I’m this business owner, but I didn’t go to school to become an entrepreneur. So I need to get more informed about how to run a company and all the things that one needs to be thinking about. So that was a big turning point for us, of setting that longer term vision, and then having those goals against it. And now, that EOS system is just super infused, you know, into our organization, I will say probably true for, you know, every business that another significant moment, or turning point was COVID. You know, our business contracted for a good maybe a year and a half. And we lean really into our values to really get and keep the team in a positively dynamic place. Because it was tough, right? There were so many dynamics about it personal and professional, it was just a super chaotic time. And I just remember thinking every time I would think, what do we do? I would look at the values and I’d find the answer somewhere in the value so that that too, I think was I knew our values were important. That was a turning point of realizing that they actually are our lifeblood.
Chad Franzen 18:19
And what you talked about kind of you didn’t go to school to be a business owner you went to school to do you know what, you’re what you’re good at. Right? Yeah. A lot of people say that, like, you know, a lawyer will say like, I was an expert at a law. And then I started my own firm. And I realized, you know, I knew about 20% of what I needed to know, was, at what point did you realize like, like, I I was, I’m good at all this stuff. But I don’t know about running this company.
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 18:43
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think once I started hiring people, I think that that was when I felt that, you know, really high level of responsibility, like, I’m responsible for these people’s lives, and I better know what I’m doing. And that’s when I started to really go to school on what does it take to run a healthy business? Another aspect that has been very instructive in that space is I belong to Vistage, which is a peer based business owner group. And so that really helps you. So between like that, and EOS, that’s been my curriculum, if you will, in learning how to be an informed and stronger business owner. And then, you know, anytime we make mistakes, I make mistakes. I try to really steeped in what went wrong, and what did we learn? And that way, we don’t have to make the same mistake again. So that’s been really helpful to
Chad Franzen 19:44
you have like a mistake, maybe I guess that would be memorable enough to have it serve as a really an important lesson during the lifespan of Noetic.
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 19:54
I mean, I probably made the ball. I think that one I would say more of a blind spot I wish that we had uncovered and articulated our values sooner. I think they would have helped us in our hiring process if we had them earlier in, you know, like in the earlier days, I would say the other one that comes to mind the most is the importance of diversifying. We have great diversification when it comes to industry, we’re not industry specific. So if you know, healthcare is soft, it’s okay. You know, if retail is soft, it’s okay. We have, you know, b2c b2b, and ours is more of a functional expertise. However, if we get one client that is too big in our portfolio, it leaves us vulnerable. And we did have a situation like that. Pre COVID, with a global health care company, it was too big versus everything else we were doing. And it was risky. And lo and behold, they had to put everything on hold, when COVID happened. And that was a financial hit that we just weren’t going to recover from in the short run. Now they’re back as a client now, but But I should have planned for that sooner. And I should have gotten harder after not having them as big in our portfolio as as they were.
Chad Franzen 21:26
As I mentioned, when I introduce you, you are also an adjunct professor at Georgetown, your alma mater. How did that come about? And what what do you like most about doing that?
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 21:36
So I think at heart, I always, you know, have gravitated to teaching. I mean, teaching and training are pretty much the same thing. My mom’s a teacher, my sister’s, a teacher, my dad taught me. So I love being in the room. And I love helping people connect dots and feel safe to be able to learn and to kind of open up their their curiosity. So we did a big brand initiative for Georgetown, which got me pretty deep into new relationships there with with a lot of the administration and some of the faculty. And that really got me thinking about it some years ago. And so I asked my, my key client one day I said, Oh, what do you think about, you know, my being an adjunct, and he was like, that’s a fabulous idea. I’ll make the call today. So it happened like that. Now, the program that I teach in is in the Continuing Studies. And it’s just a marvelous program, huge shout out, shout out to Wendy, say, Jack, who runs it. These are students who are doing a two year program, they’re typically 20 Somethings now coming from all over the world. And it’s an integrated marketing program. And I teach in the course, called Capstone, which is the last class they take. And they have to put all of it together, by getting a client, the client is pro bono, but they get an actual client, and they have to use all of the things they’ve learned. So they do market research, they set a strategy, they have to present to the client at the end. So it’s very practical, and it’s really exciting to watch them all connect the dots,
Chad Franzen 23:26
and I’m guessing make any use kind of that, whatever they do as a tool for helping them get another job, you know, like, this is what I’ve done, like a portfolio type thing.
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 23:35
Exactly, exactly. So sometimes, you know, it would be they all have advisors, you know, sometimes the advisors end up, you know, helping them or hiring them. Sometimes the client that that they, you know, get and they do the pro bono work for. Some of them are in positions, and they aren’t looking for a new opportunity. But I would say most of them are looking out for new opportunities, which is why they want to get this added degree.
Chad Franzen 24:03
Yeah. So you have written you’ve written a book as well. It’s called How Senior Markers Scale the Heights. What led you to write that?
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 24:11
Yeah. So it’s, it’s embarrassing, but I’ll tell you anyway, I wanted to write a book since I was a little kid. I used to, like, take Elmer’s glue and like bind my little stories together and you know, put my name on it. So like, I always wanted to be an author. So it was definitely one of those life dream things. I got to a certain point in my career that I felt like I wanted to give back to this marketing community that had been so good to me. I was kind of at the space of like, what are you waiting for on writing this book that you always knew that you would like, let’s get going. So what I did it as I interviewed over 50, Senior marketers, and I basically tell how to scale the heights through their words. So I use that those in depth interviews to really They codify around the the theories and the themes in the book.
Chad Franzen 25:06
Wow, sounds great. So who would benefit the most from it from reading it and why?
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 25:13
Who would benefit most is anyone who has interest in marketing, whether they’re, you know, new added, or all the way up to the highest levels. I also have been told by non marketers that there’s a lot of leadership guidance in it. So I think that anyone who is interested in leveraging the, what I call the art and the science sides have their skill sets. It has it has relevance for specifically in the book, there’s the art and science assessment, which you talked about in your intro. So the art and science assessment is it’s an actual, like quiz that you take. And it gives you a score and helps you know, whether you’re art leaning, or science leaning, and then gives you a whole toolkit around how you can strengthen you know, the side where you may be weaker, or if you’re balanced in the middle, how you can continue to hone that. And we now do trainings in that for organizations as well we do you know, day long or series of trainings, helping them identify at an individual level. And at a team level, where are they strong? Where, you know, do they have the opportunity areas, and then what can they do to strengthen so it’s pretty practical. Sometimes. I’ve also had some more senior marketers say to me that when they read it, it’s kind of like therapy. Because, you know, hearing, hearing the wisdom and a little bit, you know, the struggles of other senior marketers makes them feel like they’re not alone.
Chad Franzen 26:43
Yeah, was there any kind of bigs I don’t know if it’s surprises is the right word, maybe takeaways that you got as you interviewed all of these people? And then you applied it towards writing the book?
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 26:52
Yeah, I think I definitely didn’t go in with with a predetermined notion of how they go about what I call scaling the heights, you know, being so successful, I let it really bubble up, I would say that the most surprising interesting aspect was what I what I call all trade SNESs. So, senior marketers to to be successful at that most senior level, you have to be really good at being a generalist. And being a generalist in our world is usually not it doesn’t really get the love and the respect, right. There’s that you know, old adage, jack of all trades, but it’s always followed by Master of None, Master of None, right, which is a criticism. However, the full quote, and that was Shakespeare that full quote is jack of all trades, master of none, but so much better than master of one. Uh huh. So Shakespeare knew. And the senior marketers now that it really is about availing yourself of being like a really adept learner, and not knowing a little about a lot, which would just make you I don’t know, a hack, but knowing a lot about a lot and being really good at learning. Because the marketing landscape is ever changing. So you really can’t go into any position as you’re rising through the ranks. And no, it you have to always be adding on these different aspects. So the learning itself is how one gets to be that really strong journalist. So I think that was probably the most interesting, if not surprising thing that came out.
Chad Franzen 28:37
Okay. Yeah, very interesting. Anything else we should know about the book.
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 28:42
It’s available on Amazon. So that’s always helpful to know. And the other thing I would mention about it is that the original book I wrote in 2018, and then this book that just launched is a new addition. Because I went back and interviewed a bevy of some of the senior marketers I had interviewed before and some new ones. Given everything that’s happened in the last three years, I wanted to see what they felt was still true. And what was newly true. And so that’s what the new addition has.
Chad Franzen 29:14
I’ve heard from book authors that it can be a pretty gut wrenching experience to write a book. You know, you sit down, some days, it takes four hours to even start working. Did you feel that or what did it come pretty easily?
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 29:30
I felt that yeah, it had it had chapters, with like, high points and low points. The research which was the first chapter was so exciting and fun. I mean, great to talk to all the senior marketers and then I had all this fodder and then I, you know, built it into themes. It got heavy as I tried to really get it into the full pros of the book. So I got a got a bit stuck during that during that time, and yeah, Making the time I did a lot of my writing on airplanes, I can just concentrate on the plane like no other place, I don’t turn on my WiFi, I just, I just put my head down. So that was that was really helpful getting an editor earlier on is also helpful. Somebody you can like bounce ideas off of share messy chapters with not waiting, you know, till later on, I found super helpful. But you know, Chad to the least favorite part for me, and I really learned about myself was that last mile, where you have to check every word, you know, and you have help, right? You have a proofreader, you have an editor, but at the end of the day, it’s your call. So you know, every comment every period, every whatever, you The buck stops with you, and then it’s going to go to print. And like if there’s typo in there, it’s on you. So I realized I thought I was detail oriented, but I realized that I’m not detail oriented to that level. I was like, ah, like, I just want to be done. Let’s be done. So it’s a journey. I have a dear friend who is a writer for Hollywood. And she said to me, before I started the book, she said, my best advice to you is, don’t do it. Unless you feel you must. Because it’s hard. And I think that is good advice. Like if you have enough passion, you’ll you’ll get through it. You’ll you’ll persevere through it was just like a passing thought. And you think it might be fun, like, maybe write a blog? Yeah. Yeah, right.
Chad Franzen 31:32
Okay. Well, sounds great. I have one more question for you. But first, I guess just you know, tell us the name of the book and how people can find it. And also, how people can find out more about Noetic Consultants.
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 31:43
Yes, great. Thank you for saying that. So the book is How Senior Marketers Scale the Heights. And then when you put that into Amazon, you’ll want to make sure that you see the edition where you see my face on it holding up the old book. So you’re not buying old edition. The sub line is what is still true, more true and newly true. So that’s kind of the sub header. And then for Noetic, our site is www.noeticconsultants.com. You can find us on LinkedIn, you can find us on Instagram. And for anyone listening. Thank you so much for listening. And and I do think and hope that if you have interest in leadership and marketing that the book is not a difficult read, because it’s so many of you know the words of the marketers themselves. And I think there’s a lot of practical help in there.
Chad Franzen 32:40
Last question for you what, you’re pretty busy. You got a lot going on? What are a few of the daily rituals that you find most important?
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 32:49
Oh, yeah, I love this question. So I’m a big early morning person. And I subscribe. I have kind of my own version, but I assist subscribe to the miracle mornings, methodology. I don’t know if you’re familiar, but it’s like you take an hour and you do you know, 10 minutes meditation, 10 minutes journaling, 10 minutes, exercise, etc. I don’t do it exactly like that. But I do sit down most mornings. I meditate. I read, I pray, I exercise, I exercise when I’m done with all that, and I journal and that helps me get my head on. Very importantly, I’m also drinking coffee as I’m doing these things. So it’s just quiet time where I get my head together. I always capture my gratitude. Three things I’m going to focus on that day. And one thing I’m gonna let go of. So that’s just become a really important ritual for me because it is it’s a busy life. And you can get a very busy brain and I find that getting my head straight first thing in the morning brings me tremendous peace and joy ultimately.
Chad Franzen 34:03
Okay, yeah, sounds great. Hey, Nancie, it’s been great to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time and for all of your insights and your stories. Really appreciate it.
Nancie McDonnell Ruder 34:12
Thank you. I just love being here. Appreciate the conversation and you’re taking the time to absolutely
Chad Franzen 34:17
So long everybody.
Outro 34:18
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