Dr. Jeremy Weisz 11:32
Yeah. I mean, it’s a compelling offer. It’s a no brainer offer. And there’s something to be said about a really good offer. And then backing it up and just keeping delivering value because that got you in the door. And then it sounds like people, you were kind of their trusted advisors, like, what else should we be doing? And they came to you with other things which kind of, you know, your services evolved and your niche evolved from there.
Rob Murray 11:56
100%. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 11:59
I want to talk about the evolution of the company and hiring a little bit. I know you’re a big culture person. So I want to start on the hiring piece. Okay. And I was talking before we hit record. There’s a show. One of the shows I like. It’s called Atypical. Okay. It’s a Netflix drama. You should check it out. It’s a guy who’s obsessed with Antarctica and penguins. And so you talked about kind of your hiring philosophy based on a job that was put out by from an expedition? Yes. Talk about that for a second.
Rob Murray 12:39
What was the guy’s name?
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 12:43
That’s what I was looking up.
Rob Murray 12:44
I figured Singleton.
Rob Murray 12:46
Singleton. What was his name? Oh. Shackleton.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 12:51
Shackleton. Yep yep yep.
Rob Murray 12:52
That’s right. Anyway, so he was the guy. He wanted to be the first person to get to Antarctica. He was in Britain or London at the time, and he had been graced some money from the monarchy to invest in his expedition. But he had no sailors. And one of the things that he did, which was really great, actually, I’m going to read it out loud because I don’t want to kill it.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 13:13
The only reason I knew that person is because I watched Atypical, and they do talk about Shackleton in in the show, but otherwise I would never have heard of this person.
Rob Murray 13:23
Oh, it’s so good. Okay, so anyway, he he’s he’s kind of finds these sailors to get to Antarctica because he doesn’t have anybody. So he posts in the in the town hall or the town square. Sorry. On. On a bulletin board. Men wanted for hazardous journey. Small wages. Bitter cold. Long months of complete darkness. Constant danger. Safe return. Doubtful. Honor and recognition in case of success. Ernest Shackleton. And guess who showed up? You know, after reading that there was five dudes, hard as nails, ready to go. And what I love about that approach is, especially recently, there’s too many people saying, hey, good pay, great benefits. Ping pong table food. It’s like everybody’s trying to like, butter up these people to put them in this like wonderful, no work, easy thing environment. When the reality of the situation is when you’re an entrepreneur or anybody, a leader looking to bring a team together, you want people that are going to work hard, they’re going to come together. They’re going to get tough when when times get tough. And you know, marketing to these folks with, you know, these these benefits and perks and I just don’t think does the does the job. It kind of attracts somebody who’s a bit more oriented to the idea of taking it easy. And like, if times get tough, maybe I’ll just quit or stay home. And so we take this, we call it a fight club approach. And if if you’ve seen the movie but there’s a great scene.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 14:56
Two rules in Fight Club.
Rob Murray 14:58
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. First rule Fight Club. Right. Don’t talk about fight club. And I think it was meatloaf or. No, it was. Yeah, it was meatloaf that was in that and yeah. Meatloaf. So he’s on the porch of the house where they’re recruiting people, and they tell him that he’s too fat and he’s too ugly and that he should go away. And he sits there on the porch for three days, day and night in the rain. And they finally, at the end, say, okay, come on in. And what I love about that is if you really go out of your way to tell people what your high performance culture looks and sounds like in terms of like we expect people to be their best. They have to study, they have to do personal and leadership development. They have to master their craft. We have leader building programs. People are expected to volunteer, be part of community organizations, you know, lead organizations. And if you don’t want to do that, don’t work here, don’t even apply. But what happens is that people are like, well, I, I want to be around people like that. And then there’s this Golden State Warriors effect that starts to happen, where you get great people coming in and they all want to be around each other. And so then they all pull harder, they all support each other, and then you end up with an organization of people that are holding each other accountable because they want to help each other. And it’s yeah, it’s and it’s been amazing. I’d say right now we have the best iteration of a team we’ve ever had in 17 years.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 16:22
What’s the hiring process look like? Give us a little glimpse.
Rob Murray 16:26
Well, Chelsea would have to run you through it more specifically, but all of our postings start like leaders want it. So this is that men wanted. But we say leaders wanted. And our purpose is empowering leaders to train the community. So we really do try to paint the picture of like, you don’t want to be here unless, you know, these are the things that are important to you, but you probably don’t want to work hard. You probably don’t want to have to be your best. You probably don’t want to have to grow yourself personally and professionally. And then and then we get into, you know, some of the typical recruiting processes. So when you post a job, you get inquiries. But we have knockout questions, you know, we’re really looking for. And one of the things is why do you want to work at Intrigue? And that’s the most important question we look at when screening. We don’t look at resumes. Resumes are garbage. Everybody puts how they were a, you know, a controller in finance when they were just running a cash register at a grocery store. So I don’t see how they do it.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 17:24
You found me out.
Rob Murray 17:25
Yeah. Exactly.
Rob Murray 17:26
So we look at why do you want to work in Intrigue and if it has anything to do with themselves or it doesn’t get filled out, well, it’s got nothing to do with us. And the reason that they’re interested in the organization, not just the job, then they’re out. And then I think one of the biggest things we do is we test the work. So depending on the role, we ask people to come in or on their own, actually do the work or work with somebody on the in the organization or a couple of people so they can experience the day to day firsthand. And so we can get a sense of what it’s like to work together. So it’s a dance before you kiss kind of mentality.
Rob Murray 17:59
Love it.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 18:00
Talk about having a co-founder and starting the company and how you met Paul.
Rob Murray 18:06
So yeah, so we met first year university. We were on the same floor in residence.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 18:10
Was he the one going around the skateboard with you?
Rob Murray 18:13
Well, he he doesn’t know how to skateboard.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 18:14
Oh.
Rob Murray 18:16
No. In all seriousness, we live downtown, so we I was skateboarding more. He was walking more. And then he had a Ford Explorer too. So he got to drive and I had to skateboard. But we ended up just becoming best buds. Moved in second year. Probably played more pond hockey than class. And then in third year it was his idea to start this thing. He had the idea of getting it going with the advertising screens in Oshawa, which is where he grew up with another buddy. It just didn’t come to fruition in the summer. So in Guelph he said, hey, I found a TV. Do you want to give this thing a shot? And it was actually cool because, like, we would walk around with this TV in our hands, asking people from a market research perspective, if we put this up at the university, would you pay? And a lot of people were like, yep yep yep yep yep. And then I left to Austria for exchange. And then he came and visited me in June for my birthday after school was over and he was backpacking Europe, and I showed him that we had made this video of us skiing through the Alps and all these different places, and we had never made our own videos before. We were trying to find somebody else to make videos for us. It was very arduous and painful to do it. He said, what did you use to make that video? And I told him, Windows Movie Maker. And he’s like, dude, we can sell advertising. I’m like, what are you talking about? He’s like, I installed the TV at the University Center. Like, it’s good to go. We can go home in August and start doing this thing. And the relationship we’ve always had is I’m pretty much the guy who makes promises, and he’s the guy who keeps them.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 19:41
That’s what I was going to ask next, is how did you come to division of roles as co-founders?
Rob Murray 19:49
I mean, for us it was pretty. Clear because like, I just I have no F’s given talking to people and reaching out to strangers and seeing if we can help them. So that just put me into a sales kind of slant out of the gate. We’ve both done all parts of the organization. He’s been in sales, I’ve been in operations, we’ve both done finance. I used to do the books. But at the end of the day, I would say there isn’t really anybody I’ve ever met that’s more integral than he is in terms of follow through. And so, you know, that’s kind of where, you know, I make the promise to make sure it’s clear, he makes sure that I’m not promising shit I can’t that he can’t fulfill. And yeah, we’ve made a really good tandem. We’re best friends. It’s been 17 years. It’s. Yeah, it’s kind of unbelievable. I think we got a bit lucky. But the reason I think we’re so successful is because we shoot each other straight. We don’t wait for things to boil up. If something’s not good, we. We just say it.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 20:49
So it seems like for him, he’s kind of very operational, focused, kind of like integrator type. You’re more maybe visionary type.
Rob Murray 20:59
I mean, you can talk about EOS labels all you want. I’d say he’s as visionary as I am, if not more. I can integrate a team better than he can sometimes. Yeah, that visionary integrator thing, I don’t know, maybe different different times and stuff like that. He’s just really good at making sure we deliver on what we say we’re going to deliver on and and crafting the promise so that I know what to go. Promise. And yeah, I just he’s got a cool mind for hacking how to get get shit done.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 21:31
Talk about Rob values, right? I mean, we’re talking about hiring and culture. And and talk about some of the values of the company.
Rob Murray 21:42
Yeah. So values here at integrity flat. So it’s client fun leadership learning action team and trust. We use an acronym to make it memorable. But so client we exist to serve our clients. That’s our first value. Everybody needs to remember that without them we don’t have paychecks. So we got to orient ourselves around making sure clients are a priority. Fun. Life’s too short not to smile. You know, we don’t need to get too upset about stuff. I think people take themselves a little too seriously sometimes. Especially if something doesn’t go well. Someone’s got to deliver bad news. It’s always better than you think. So just, you know, have some fun. Have a smile and let’s not take ourselves too seriously. And then we have leadership. Do what you say you’re gonna do when you say you’re going to do it. Learning. Practice. Practice an unquenchable thirst for applicable knowledge. Action. Embrace failure and learn from it. Theme. Everyone has everyone’s back and trust. Practice open, honest communication. Yeah. Those values drive the culture. And the culture here, I would say, is very much teamwork oriented and end result oriented. So, you know, those core values really help us shape the culture and making sure that people come to the organization and live those values on a day to day.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 23:00
Looks like you also made a decision to be a certified B Corp.
Rob Murray 23:05
Yes, we did talk about that because that’s a really I think, big decision.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 23:10
And and from what I’ve heard, very strenuous.
Rob Murray 23:13
So yeah, it’s not like, oh you just pay like money and you get it. There’s a lot of criteria you need to do. So talk about that decision because I know people have looked into it. They’re like, oh, forget it. Like no way. And obviously other people went through with it. A lot of people I mean, it’s it’s an arduous bureaucratic process to get through and be certified. The thing though, that we saw is that we were a B Corp before we were B Corp. We just went to the B Corp process to certify the fact that what we do, like, we didn’t change our business to become a B Corp, we just had to build policies and governance around the things we believed in and proved to people we have them documented. So as much as yes, it is a lot, all of our score deficiencies were a lack of documentation, so it wasn’t difficult for us to design the company. For B Corp, we were a B Corp. We just had to formalize paperwork.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 24:12
It seemed like, you know, you were talking before about it’s a big value to give back. And as far as like, you know, volunteering etc.. What are some of the things you do as a company or yourself that really sticks in your mind?
Rob Murray 24:33
Yeah for sure. I mean, one of the things is we believe that you have to get involved, not give back, you know? We live in communities and we have the opportunity to, you know, have a beautiful life. You know, we’re driving beautiful cars. We’re watching big screen TVs. We’re eating really good food. We’ve got sunshine, fresh air and fresh water like, we got it good. You know, a hundred years ago, it wasn’t this good. Not even close. So what can we do to get involved? You know, they say it’s cliche to say be the change you want to see in the world. That’s cliche to do. It is not cliche. So get involved. You know, we we do a lot of stuff as a group. So we help do like a lot of customer acquisition or donor acquisition, marketing campaigns, community engagement. For a lot of nonprofits, whether it’s a fundraiser, an event selling tickets, or if it’s a community organization trying to, you know, raise money through community bonds or whatever. So we do a lot of that stuff. Personally, I do a lot of volunteering with local hospitals here. So community engagement task force, digital task force, I was on the board there. We’ve got a bunch of other people here, whether it’s United Way or community foundations, working with like homeless shelters. There’s there’s a lot and everybody gets the opportunity if they need to volunteer. It’s not like a personal day or taking the time, taking a day off. You can just go do it.
Rob Murray 25:50
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 25:51
I just figured give, get some people’s creative juices flowing for what you do, and maybe they’ll think about doing it in their own community, you know?
Rob Murray 26:00
So thanks for sharing that.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 26:04
Obviously you’ve helped a lot of businesses grow. And you have kind of this. framework of five marketing mistakes. So why don’t we talk about that so people maybe can avoid the mistakes potentially.
Rob Murray 26:18
Yeah. Yeah for sure. And it’s it’s it’s all around building a foundation from a marketing and sales point of view that’s authentic and becomes predictable over time. And so the first thing we see as a mistake is that people are talking to the wrong part of the brain, and Simon Sinek is the best, I think, in terms of researching what creates a great leader and loyalty towards a great leader, whether it be the Wright Brothers or, you know, Martin Luther King, whatever you want to say. But what he found in his research with the three Golden circles was that, you know, the way we communicate is kind of lined up with the way our brain takes information. And so our neuro cortex is responsible for reason and arithmetic and taking in lots of information and vocabulary. And our limbic brain is responsible for emotions and decision making, not vocabulary. So, and this is pretty old adage that people make decisions emotionally and then they justify those decisions intellectually. So the question then becomes, well, how do we communicate to somebody from an emotional standpoint? How do we get people emotionally involved when we’re talking about the what we do and how we help people? And, well, the thing is, it’s getting into the why we do things like why? Why are we here? And so injuring our purpose is empowering leaders to strengthen communities. You know, that’s from an inside out perspective. You know, we got to start with ourselves and our team, and then they empower our clients. As our clients grow, you know, they’re hiring more folks. And these are the entrepreneurs that put their houses on the line. Right. And support local soccer teams, hospitals, whatever. So that’s kind of where we come from. And we have a big belief in leadership and community. And and you can see it in what we do and we’ve already talked a bit about it. So then when people hear us, see us, work with us, that leadership is prevalent in the communities in prevalent. And what it’s cool is because it starts, we start to work with people that believe what we believe. And I think that’s where you build a really cool opportunity for a great customer experience by bringing customers in that believe what you believe and bringing team members in that believe what you believe. So when they work together, they can have a world class customer experience. We have a model called Growth on Purpose that explains how that all works. But the first thing is to try to figure out how to start talking to the limbic brain. And that can be done through the start with why approach. We have four questions people can go through. They usually take some facilitation, but it’s simple. It’s just what do you do? How do you do it differently than your competitors? Why do you do it that way and why is that important to you? And you’re not allowed to say for money because that’s a result, not a reason. And so when we bring people through that series of four questions, we start to see their value system pop up. And a lot of times that fourth question about why is it important to you to run the business? The way you do is usually grounded somewhere in how they grew up. And there’s usually some, you know, figure of authority from their childhood, you know, parents, grandparents, whatever, that made an impact on the way they want to live their life. And then then that comes through and is, you know, essentially personified in, in an organizational setting. So that’s mistake number one. People talk in the wrong part of their brain.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 29:43
Rob, let me really quickly can you repeat those four questions? I think that’d be good for our next EO forum retreat. Go. What are the four questions again?
Rob Murray 29:53
What do you do? And no wordsmithing the rule for the first question is you have to be simple and deliberate in what you do as a business. So like we, you know, renovate backyards in Kansas City, you know, like there’s no bringing family together to build connections and dreams. And that’s not that’s not the time for it. And then the second one is how do you do it differently than your competitors? And what we need, there is 2 or 3 specific examples that you do differently that a customer would experience. So you’re not allowed to say quality and just say that you’ve got good products. Customers don’t necessarily experience that during the delivery of your service. Now if you say quality, you’ve got a ten year warranty on your work. Well, that’s something I can perceive. And I can see that you stand behind your work. That’s quality. The next one is why do you do it that way? And then the last one and this one’s the one people struggle with and they don’t have answers for. And they have to really like sit in is. Why is that important to you?
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 31:05
Cool. Thank you. So that was number one.
Rob Murray 31:09
Yeah. Mistake number two. People think growth comes from new business. But the reality is every business runs on a very similar, if not the exact same revenue model. And very quickly you essentially break it down with leads times. Conversion rate gives you customers. So leads times conversion rate gives you customers times average sale times gross margin gives you average gross margin dollars times frequency of purchase times. Years of relationship gives you lifetime value of a customer. And in this equation, in terms of the lifetime value of ten leads. There’s there’s three results there. There’s customers average gross margin in dollars and lifetime value of a lead. Those are all results. The other six variables are controllable. And so we can increase our leads, we can increase our conversion rate, we can increase our average sale. We can increase our gross margin, we can increase the frequency of purchase, and we can increase the lifetime value of a customer. So when we work with people, sometimes lead flow isn’t the issue. Sometimes conversion rate is the issue, or sometimes they’re priced too low, or sometimes they work on small projects when they shouldn’t, and it makes them too busy to work on better ones. And so what we need to understand is if you increase those six variables by 10% each. So I’m talking ten leads to 11 leads, you know, a $10,000 average sale to an $11,000 average sale. So 10% just a little bit 10%. But if you increase each variable by 10%, the overall net increase to the system is 83%. So what we do is like where should we focus our first, you know, three, six, nine months. And then if you focus on one variable, actually a quarter in a year and a half, you can see an 83% increase without having to hire one person. That’s about it. Yeah, it’s a big deal. The mistake number three is people are always talking about themselves. If you go to a website, 999 out of 1000 websites are this is what we do. This is who we are. This is how long we’ve done it for. This is why you should care about us. And this is our process. Turns out customers don’t care about you. Customers care about two things and two things alone. The first one is solving their problems. The second one is accomplishing their goals. And so what we need to do is move from a a business oriented and solution focused approach to communication and shift it toward a customer oriented and problem focused approach to communication so that you can help people see that you’ve addressed the problems they have better than they have, so you understand their problem better than they do, because you do it all the time. This is their first time as a customer and and then and then help them walk to the solution state. So it’s like here are the problems we always help people with. This is how we address those problems that you probably have. And here’s a bunch of other people we’ve done it for and what it looks like when they’re gone. So we can understand your problem and solve it and help you accomplish your goal, which is the solution state. That’s a that’s a big deal. A lot of times people don’t know their customer problem because they have too many customers types and they’re not narrow or niched. And so what we try to do is help people understand their where they can niche towards. They don’t have to fully go there because it’s frightening for a lot of people to become more narrow because they think that there’s less customers, but really they actually control their pricing. One of the good examples we always give is there’s this great customer we have in downtown Seattle. His name is Scott Eckley. He’s a landscape business, but if you go to his website, it says that they’re Specialist in urban landscape design and construction in downtown Seattle. So they understand tight spaces. They understand outdoor living. They understand Seattle very well. And then if you look at their next competitor, it says full service design build landscape company. If you’re looking to get landscape or outdoor living space renovated in Seattle and you look at two websites, where do you go first? And so the whole idea around this is how do you become the choice, not a choice. And even Intrigue where, you know, landscape marketing company today, you know, once we get to a certain number of customers we’ll niche into another vertical. But, you know, there’s probably six landscape marketing companies that are professional like we are. Do you know how many full service marketing companies there are in North America but 40 million, you know. It’s insane. So, you know, how can we elevate ourselves, differentiate. The next mistake is that people don’t know where their money’s going, and they have no goal, and they don’t know how to measure it. So mistake number four is no goal. You know we’re Canadian, right? Picture that referee putting his arms out. No goal. And even when they do have a goal, usually it’s vague and ambiguous and doesn’t serve them. So a lot of times people call us. They say they want to improve their social media or they want to have brand visibility. I can tell you from experience that after six months of doing brand visibility, writing checks to somebody goes pretty cold.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 36:14
So a lot of times that in the. Podcast world too. Yeah, I just want more authority. I’m like, no, no, that’s not what you want.
Rob Murray 36:23
Actually, you might think that, but I can tell you, if you’re writing me checks, it’s going to get old quick. Yeah. So then we so, you know, marketing from our perspective, especially for an entrepreneurial business under $10 million, even under $50 million should be supporting sales. And so goals for sales and marketing should be very much linked. And we want to see an increase in revenue. Now there is a bit of a caveat. You know, we don’t close deals for people, so I can’t be on the hook for getting you deals. However, I can be on the hook for getting you what we would consider a qualified lead. So we look at goals like customer or cost per lead, cost per qualified lead, or customer acquisition cost, assuming that the client’s been vetted for their sales process. And I would say if you’re working on marketing yourself, or if you’re working with a company or a team, you know, having a goal around the number of inquiries or number of leads that you want, and the qualification of those leads is probably a really good starting point when it comes to a goal. What’s really interesting with it is if you have a $50,000 budget and you say, you know what, my cost per lead goal this year is 500. Well, that’s going to get you 100 leads, you know, in theory. So then you run your campaign and you see how it goes for the year and six months in nine months in 12 months and you check in. Well, it turns out my cost per lead was actually a thousand. It was double what I expected. Well guess what? Now you know what your cost per lead is. And so now you can try to make it better. A lot of people just don’t have a goal and they don’t measure it. So with a little bit of discipline, we can get really clear on what’s working and what’s not. And there’s some amazing tools out there that can help you do that. We have a sales and lead tracking like attribution system that is, you know, second to none and shows you exactly, you know, what keyword drives, what revenue. So getting really clear on what your goals are and then measuring what’s working and what’s not, and getting out of this place of, I don’t know where my money’s going. I don’t know what’s working. It doesn’t have to be there anymore. And then the last mistake is that people don’t know how well they’re performing next to their peers. They’ve got very little industry benchmarking. So, you know, your marketing might be good and your cost per lead at a $500 goal is working. And you’re like, pumped because you’re doing what you thought was great, but it turns out that the cost. In your industry could be under $200. So there’s actually a good chance to. Improve things. Or the cost typically is $800 and you’re kicking but you’re way below. The average. And so you’re highly effective and efficient in the way that you’re going to market. That really helps orient where we can improve or not have to put energy toward something. But if we don’t have the benchmarking, it’s very difficult to understand where we stand. And so one of the benchmarks that we always talk about, this is just generic for everybody. But a website done right should convert 3% of visitors into a decent lead. So that means out of 100 visitors you get three phone calls or submissions. This is specifically in like a service business model. And so what we used to say to people is, well, hey, do you know what your conversion rate is? If you don’t go ask your web team or marketing company, they’ll probably have to take a hot minute to go figure it out because they probably don’t know what it is. And then when it comes back, if it’s under 3%. You want to put pressure on them to get it to three. If it’s over 3%, they’re doing something right. We typically want to see our sites convert anywhere between 5 and 7%. So five out of seven, 5 or 7 leads out of 100 visitors. But if you don’t have that benchmarking, it’s difficult to understand what works and what doesn’t. So yeah, you tie those five mistakes together, and all of a sudden you can create a pretty predictable approach to market.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 40:07
Rob, that was fantastic. I’m gonna have to go back and listen to that again. A lot of stuff jam packed in there. So thank you for sharing that. I know we have a few minutes left, so I have one last question before I ask it. I want to tell people go check out intriguemedia.com specifically, if you know, landscaping businesses or people in the landscaping arena, tell them to check it out. But yeah, my last question is books some of your favorite books? You know, I learned a lot just by looking at your LinkedIn profile page, you have a stack of books there. I actually looked up the power of nice. I’m like, I’ve never heard of that book. I have to go get that book on Audible. You start with why on there, Simon Sinek. You have some Seth Godin books. What are some of the other favorite books resources people should check out?
Rob Murray 40:59
Yeah, cool. So E-myth Revisited was probably the one that started the path to become well read when it comes to personal development, professional development, leadership development, business marketing, sales, operations, project management, whatever. E-myth made me realize I knew nothing. Michael Gerber. 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership John C Maxwell. That was a kick in the nuts. I thought I was a natural born leader, and I realized reading that book that I had a lot of work to do. Law of the mirror, specifically, and this is for anybody listening as an entrepreneur or leader, things happen inside an organization for one of two reasons. Either you model it or you settle for it. And that was a big lesson for me.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 41:42
I mean, there’s that’s a parenting lesson too.
Rob Murray 41:44
Oh, no. No doubt. Well, leadership and parenting, I mean, they go hand in hand. No question.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 41:48
Yeah.
Rob Murray 41:49
There’s a bunch, man. Like Jim Collins stuff is all amazing. Daniel Pink stuff is pretty good. Patrick Lencioni, you know, Five Dysfunctions of a Team. All of his work is amazing. I think You Can’t Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar. David Sandler, it’s a great read. It’s co-written by Dave Mattson. Anyway, there’s lots, but those are some good ones.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 42:14
No, I appreciate it, everyone. Check out more episodes of the podcast. Check out intriguemedia.com. We’ll see everyone next time. Rob, thanks so much. Thanks.
Rob Murray 42:21
Appreciate, Jeremy. Appreciate it.
Outro 42:23
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