Why Direct Mail Still Works (And How To Do It Right) With Rick Rappe

Olga Svitelska Rick Rappe is the President and Owner of RPM Direct Marketing, a Seattle-based agency specializing in direct mail marketing services, including lead generation, acquisition, loyalty, and win-back programs. With over 30 years of experience in the industry, Rick has developed and managed some of the largest and most successful direct-marketing-driven sales channels in the country. Under his leadership, RPM delivers performance-driven direct mail programs tailored to clients’ unique goals.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

[5:20] Rick Rappe explains RPM’s focus on scaling profitable direct mail campaigns
[8:14] Why cost per sale is the key metric in direct mail success
[9:47] The Rapid Performance Method to testing and optimization
[11:51] Common mistakes companies make when trying direct mail for the first time
[14:27] The critical role of offers and copy in driving campaign results
[16:42] How a mini catalog format dramatically outperformed traditional postcards
[21:13] Adding interactive design elements to boost engagement and response rates
[26:18] Stealth envelopes and the psychology of getting mail opened
[31:43] Comparing AI-driven predictive modeling versus human-built models

In this episode…

Direct mail often gets overlooked in today’s digital world, but it’s quietly powering some of the biggest marketing wins behind the scenes. While everyone’s chasing online clicks and social media impressions, there’s a different channel consistently driving actual sales. So, why does direct mail still work, and what’s the right way to use it?

According to Rick Rappe, a direct response marketing expert, direct mail works because it’s tangible, measurable, and scalable when done correctly. He highlights that success hinges on understanding key variables like cost per sale, audience segmentation, and offer structure. The impact? High-performing campaigns that often outperform digital in both engagement and ROI. Rick also stresses the value of rigorous testing, using his Rapid Performance Method to optimize everything from list targeting to format design. This strategic, data-driven approach transforms mailers from static promotions into dynamic sales engines.

In this episode of the Rising Entrepreneurs Podcast, host Dr. Jeremy Weisz sits down with Rick Rappe, President and Owner of RPM Direct Marketing, to discuss how to build direct mail campaigns that actually convert. They explore why the proper format matters more than flash, how to avoid the most common mistakes marketers make, and why testing beats guessing every time. Rick also gives advice on integrating AI into direct mail strategy.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Quotable Moments

“We really believe in the power of direct mail. And we’ve stayed very focused on direct mail.”
“We can mail A, B, C, D, E, F, G versions all at the same time.”
“The offer is key. And then if you can have good creative on top of that.”
“There’s a lot of little things that can trip you up. I mean, there’s a lot.”
“When you’ve got the winning copy platform, the winning design, the winning format, the winning offer.”

Action Steps

Test multiple direct mail formats simultaneously: Running A/B/C tests reveals which creative, offers, and formats generate the highest response and ROI.
Focus on cost per sale as the primary metric: Measuring success this way combines performance with efficiency, helping guide budget allocation and campaign decisions.
Avoid over-relying on postcard campaigns: Postcards may seem easy and cheap but often lack the impact needed for meaningful conversions.
Prioritize compelling offers over flashy design: Even basic mailers can perform well if the offer is strong and aligned with the target audience.
Use a scientific, data-driven approach: Relying on testing, tracking, and analytics ensures repeatable success and guards against costly marketing assumptions.

Sponsor for this episode…

At Rise25 we help B2B businesses give to and connect to your ‘Dream 200’ relationships and partnerships.

We help you cultivate amazing relationships in 2 ways.

#1 Podcasting

#2 Strategic Gifting

#1 Our Predictable Podcast ROI Program

At Rise25, we’re committed to helping you connect with your Dream 200 referral partners, clients, and strategic partners through our done-for-you podcast solution.

We’re a professional podcast production agency that makes creating a podcast effortless. Since 2009, our proven system has helped thousands of B2B businesses build strong relationships with referral partners, clients, and audiences without doing the hard work.

What do you need to start a podcast?

When you use our proven system, all you need is an idea and a voice. We handle the strategy, production, and distribution – you just need to show up and talk.

The Rise25 podcasting solution is designed to help you build a profitable podcast. This requires a specific strategy, and we’ve got that down pat. We focus on making sure you have a direct path to ROI, which is the most important component. Plus, our podcast production company takes any heavy lifting of production and distribution off your plate.

We make distribution easy.

We’ll distribute each episode across more than 11 unique channels, including iTunes, Spotify, and Amazon Podcasts. We’ll also create copy for each episode and promote your show across social media.

Cofounders Dr. Jeremy Weisz and John Corcoran credit podcasting as being the best thing they have ever done for their businesses. Podcasting connected them with the founders/CEOs of P90x, Atari, Einstein Bagels, Mattel, Rx Bars, YPO, EO, Lending Tree, Freshdesk, and many more.

The relationships you form through podcasting run deep. Jeremy and John became business partners through podcasting. They have even gone on family vacations and attended weddings of guests who have been on the podcast.

Podcast production has a lot of moving parts and is a big commitment on our end; we only want to work with people who are committed to their business and to cultivating amazing relationships.

Are you considering launching a podcast to acquire partnerships, clients, and referrals? Would you like to work with a podcast agency that wants you to win?

Rise25 Cofounders, Dr. Jeremy Weisz and John Corcoran, have been podcasting and advising about podcasting since 2008.

#2 Our Comprehensive Corporate Gifting Program

Elevate business relationships with customers, partners, staff, and prospects through gifting.

At Rise25, thoughtful and consistent gifting is a key component of staying top of mind and helps build lasting business relationships. Our corporate gift program is designed to simplify your process by delivering a full-service corporate gifting program — from sourcing and hand selecting the best gifts to expert packaging, custom branding, reliable shipping, and personalized messaging on your branded stationary.

Our done-for-you corporate gifting service ensures that your referral partners, prospects, and clients receive personalized touchpoints that enhance your business gifting efforts and provide a refined executive gifting experience. Whether you’re looking to impress key stakeholders or boost client loyalty, our comprehensive approach makes it easy and affordable.

Discover how Rise25’s personalized corporate gifting program can help you create lasting impressions. Get started today and experience the difference a strategic gifting approach can make.

Email us through our contact form.

You can learn more and watch a video on how it works here: https://rise25.com/giftprogram/

Episode Transcript:

Intro: 00:03

Welcome to the Rising Entrepreneurs Podcast, where we feature top founders and entrepreneurs and their journey. Now let’s get started with the show.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 00:13

Dr. Jeremy Weisz here, Founder of inspiredInsider.com, where I talk with inspirational entrepreneurs and leaders. Today is no different. I have Rick Rappe. You can check him out at rpmdm.com that’s RPM and then the DM is direct marketing.com.

I’ll pull his website up in a second. But Rick, before I formally introduce you, I always like to point out other episodes of the podcast people should check out. I geek out anyone who listens to me on direct response, marketing and agencies. This is a perfect combination. Agencies that will do direct response marketing for you.

So some of my favorites. Direct response marketing episodes I Jason Fladlien. Rapid Crush. She talked about mastering the art of webinars, which was was powerful. I had a panel, Rick of Brian Kurtz, Richard Armstrong, and John Carlton.

Brian really was second in command at boardroom, I think at its height was doing $150 million, sending lots of books and other things to people. I think he sent billions. I’m sure you have to billions and billions of things in the mail for people from a response. That was a really good episode. Also 2nd May they rest in peace episodes.

Joe Sugarman, who started Blue Blockers, do you know, have you have you you know, Joe know of Joe?

Rick Rappe: 01:42

I don’t know him, but I’ve definitely heard the name. Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 01:45

He’s has one of my favorite books on copywriting of all time. I’m trying to get my daughter to read it, because I think direct marketing is like the foundation for almost everything. And so Joe Sugarman’s book, but he started Blue Blockers. Ron Popeil, you know who? If you listen to infomercials, kind of the king of infomercials.

But wait, there’s more. I believe he came up with that. So check all those out and many more in InspiredInsider.com. This episode is brought to you by Rise25.

At Rise25, we help businesses give to and connect to their dream relationships and partnerships. We do that in two ways. One, we help companies launch and run a podcast or an easy button. So we do the strategy, accountability and full execution. So Rick, you knows we kind of are the magic elves that run in the background and make it look easy for the hosts.

They can create amazing relationships and amazing content. We also are an easy button for our company’s corporate gifting. So we make gifting and staying top of mind for clients and partners and prospects easy. And you know, if it’s staff members, we don’t do this at scale. Like Rick, this is like, okay, people have like a set group of partners if they have a set group of clients or a set group of staff that they really want to just show some love to, we will set up, you know, gifts that go out on a certain cadence so that people get some nice things in the mail.

We like to send food, actually, because I like to get food. So for me, you know, the number one thing in my life is relationships. I’m always looking at ways on how I can give to my best relationships. And I found no better way over the past decade to feature people in my podcast and send them delicious treats in the mail. Okay, so if you are thought about any of these things, go to rise25.com or email us at support@rise25.com.

Rick Rappe: 03:40

I am. Super treats. I will definitely be your friend.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 03:42

You are going to get treats so just wait.

Rick Rappe: 03:45

Absolutely.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 03:47

I’m excited to introduce Rick Rappe. He’s a director, you know, direct response and direct marketing expert with over 30 years experience creating and managing some of the most successful direct mail campaigns. Sales channels in the country for companies like AT&T, DirecTV, LifeLock. And actually, we’ll talk a little bit about in 2007, he he said this, not me. He escaped the corporate world.

Okay. And we’ll talk about what that means. But Rick and the RPM team really believe it’s not even believe it’s true. Direct mail should work harder and cost less. And they deliver smarter, more profitable campaigns for their clients.

You know, I say this, Rick, even if you look at the top companies in the world, digital companies. Google. Right. Guess what they do. They customers, they send direct mail.

They send direct mail. I’ve gotten it like, hey, here’s 100. Now they own the channel. They could send free ads as much as they want, right? But they send direct mail.

I’ve gotten gift certificates. Hey, get $100 free if you start this ad campaign, right? Because it works. So, Rick, thanks for joining me.

Rick Rappe: 05:03

Well, thanks for having me. This is going to be fun.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 05:05

So let’s start off with I want to get inside your head on all things direct mail. What works, what doesn’t work. But just start off talking about RPM and what you do. And I’m going to just share your website as you’re talking.

Rick Rappe: 05:20

Oh, thanks. Yeah. We’re a small direct marketing agency. We’re highly focused on direct mail for companies that want to build profitable direct mail programs and scale them up into direct sales channels. You know, we come alongside their marketing team and provide expertise and resources and, you know, all the services that they need to build winning direct mail programs very quickly and efficiently.

So we really believe in the power of direct mail. And we’ve stayed very focused on direct mail. And that allows us to really be higher performing, I think, than a lot of other places where they can, you know, get direct mail done. One of the things that we’ve noticed is that there’s a lot of people out there in the world that will help you with your direct mail from, you know, the corner printer to ad agencies to, you know, everybody, everybody says, sure, we do direct mail. We just only do direct mail.

And that makes us more efficient and more successful at it.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 06:26

We’ll get into the details because I love this conversation. It just for me gets the juices flowing on what can be done. Because I feel like at least the companies I talk to most are not utilizing anything in direct mail. I know you do this at scale with these large companies. You know, from home warranty to internet and cable to square to we mentioned a couple of the others.

What are some of the coolest things you’ve sent or seen sent. Throughout your 30 years, through some of the campaigns that you’ve run.

Rick Rappe: 06:59

Oh, boy. Some of the coolest things that have been sent. Well, it depends on how you define cool.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 07:06

I’ll let you define it.

Rick Rappe: 07:10

Well, I get excited by the results. And so usually we we define great results as, you know, a high response rate. But then it also has to have a good conversion rate. And we’re looking at ultimately the number of sales that we drive. But the the key metric that we often measure in direct mail is cost per sale.

So what that, you know, we’re obviously taking the cost of the mailing and dividing it by the results that we get. That’s the most important metric that we often look at. And the numbers that we we ask our clients, you know, what is a good cost per sale for you? Is it $100 per sale? And that becomes the target.

And then we try to beat that through testing. So okay, back to your question. What’s the coolest thing I’ve seen? So let’s go with that.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 07:58

Let’s go with the coolest. The coolest. Let’s let’s define as like I was thinking different, but like the coolest for you is just a high response rate. So talk about some of the things that you have sent that have helped with the high response rate. And we’ll break it down.

Rick Rappe: 08:14

Yeah. Why that’s cool for me is I mean, we often are being challenged to prove that direct mail can be effective first of all. So that’s the first step where we have to crack the code. So we build, you know, big test structures. And we have a process we call the rapid performance method, which allows us to test lots of different things all at the same time.

And that becomes really powerful because obviously, you know, we have to make some assumptions and some best guesses, but we don’t want to put we don’t want to be guessing very long. We want to be data driven in our approach. So we put a bunch of ideas out. And the beautiful thing about direct mail is we can mail A, B, C, D, E, F, G versions all at the same time and read the results. And then we know, okay, we’ve got these winners and we can take the winners then and begin to scale the program up.

So we get really excited. I get super excited when the CEO of the company that we’re working for stops asking me, is direct mail going to work? And starts asking me how much direct mail can we do? That’s the shift that I like to see, and I get super jazzed. And I think that that’s super cool when they go, oh, this is actually working.

And we can we, we can repeat this and scale this. And it becomes very exciting because then we’re not talking about projects, we’re talking about a sales channel. And that’s a whole different story.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 09:43

Talk about the rapid performance method.

Rick Rappe: 09:47

Sure. Yeah. The rapid performance method was kind of developed over many years. And it’s it’s it’s an approach of testing offers creative ideas, formats as well as list segments and list targeting. Sometimes we different segmentation approaches.

So we put all of that together into a matrix and we send it out in tests. And then we’re using some you know obviously tracking and analytics on the back end to get a read on the performance of that program as quickly as possible so that we can leverage the learning and move forward into something that is very that is going to be predictable, going to be more proven, and then, you know, and then moving in that right direction. So it’s just a way to accelerate learning really. You know, too many people approach direct mail the wrong way. And that is like, hey, let’s try a postcard.

Card and they throw one postcard out in the mail and it doesn’t work. And then all of a sudden they’re like, well, direct mail doesn’t work. Well, that’s not right. You just didn’t do it correctly. So our approach is much more the proper way, the scientific way to find the needle in a haystack.

And it can be done very consistently if you do it the right way. And that’s why the rapid performance method was created.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 11:15

Let’s talk about mistakes. Right. You brought up one. Hey I’m just going to send like ten in the mail and it’s gonna I get the same thing with podcasts. Like I tried doing two podcasts.

It doesn’t work. I’m like, well, that’s not. Yeah, I agree. Right. And then we’re like, what’s the what’s your sales cycle?

Well it’s six months. Like okay, so you did you know. So the mistakes you’ve seen people just try it right. Then a very low amount in a postcard and they say it say doesn’t work. What other mistakes do you see people make?

Rick Rappe: 11:51

Yeah, the postcard approach is a mistake because there’s a time and a place for postcards, and they’re not the best solution for everything. So we see a lot of people do postcards because they’re super easy to execute and quick. So they’re and they’re they’re low cost. And you can do them kind of yourself at low volume. So we see a lot of people make that mistake.

And it’s like, well, postcards didn’t work. Well, that that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a solution that’s going to work for you and for your product. Sometimes we need a letter package and more real estate to tell a story and have multiple pieces that people can engage with rather than a postcard. So that’s one thing. You know, we just see a lot of people make the mistake of really not testing nearly enough.

They go with a list source. That sounds good. The problem with the list world is it’s kind of a black box, right? Like where? Okay, I’ve purchased a list.

The list? The description of the list sounds amazing. It’s got to be the best list. Well, that doesn’t necessarily hold true when the performance comes through. So you have to test and learn and measure up and be skeptical sometimes.

So that’s that’s another thing. I think there’s a lot of people out there who just think direct mail should be pretty easy. So they discount sort of the experience of working with somebody like myself who’s been testing and measuring things for 30 years, and they sort of think, how hard could it be? It’s just sending a piece of direct mail out like that. What’s difficult about that?

There’s a lot of little things that can trip you up. I mean, there’s a lot of problems that can. Really impact performance. We had a client that a long time ago that did a minor tweak to one of their winning direct mail programs, and like their call to action was like, just call now. and they changed like one letter to like you must call now and instead of just call now.

And that one letter like caused a major decline in performance. So there’s, there’s some little things that can trip people up. So I don’t know I’d like to encourage people to work with an expert since I am one.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 14:06

Yeah. Let me just recap that for a second. Here’s what I got out of it. Yeah, some things that trip people up are mistakes. They make one not having good copy.

And that includes like a bad offer, even like a good offer can be turned bad very easily. Sure. You know.

Rick Rappe: 14:27

Yes. I should have mentioned offer. You’re you’re absolutely right. Because offer is a huge driver of direct mail performance. And I like to say a great offer.

You can mail it with black ink on white paper and creative doesn’t really matter. It’ll it’ll perform. You know what I mean? The offer is is key. And then if you can have good creative on top of that, that will also help.

But it’s not the only thing. And a lot of times people make the mistake of getting really focused on creative or design, I should say maybe. And they discount offer and they discount copy and that’s that’s a mistake for sure.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 15:05

Yeah. And if the offer is terrible, it doesn’t matter in the end. Yeah.

Rick Rappe: 15:09

If the offer is terrible, you can mail something that looks amazing and is written by the best copywriter in the world, and it won’t perform. Exactly.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 15:17

Well, that’s why I. What’s interesting is, like, if any one of these things is not functioning on full, you know, full cylinder, it’s not going to work. Right. And you mentioned bad list source. It doesn’t matter if you have the best offer, best copy at all.

Not going to work. Right. You know not testing obviously is a big one. You know.

Rick Rappe: 15:40

Well through testing is where we can find the intersection where Are all of these individual elements come together and mesh and create the best possible combination. You know, that’s where the magic happens in direct marketing is when you’ve got the winning copy platform, the winning design, the winning format, the winning offer to the winning list. There you go. You know, that’s going to be a magic piece that performs two, three, four times the performance of, you know, other things.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 16:11

Yeah. And you mentioned two. Sometimes it’s the wrong format of the mailer. So like a postcard versus a letter versus an, you know, whatever, like a colored envelope or whatever it is. And that’s, that’s kind of why I wanted to start at the beginning, but I’m glad you kind of took me to the metrics piece, you know, what are some other things.

And maybe we’ll take an example. I don’t know if we should take, you know, the the warranty home warranty example or in a cable, just to give people an example of what are some of the things you do send in the mail?

Rick Rappe: 16:42

Yeah, Yeah. Well, we send all different types of formats. The internet and cable. I will use an internet and cable company example where they rely heavily on postcards or they have many companies do. I’ve worked with several internet and cable clients now for many years.

Based on my experience in the past with AT&T. And basically I started steering them towards higher performing, you know, letter packages. And and then one of the biggest breakthroughs I found for internet and cable companies, to be honest with you, was to try a mini catalog, an eight page or a 12 page mini catalog, like a almost like you’d see like a product catalog. But we would do a spread on, you know, internet speeds and a spread on TV cable packages and a spread on phone, home phone and and then have have offers and a letter at the beginning and things like that. And that particular format would blow the doors off the call center like that.

People would respond to it and they would. It had super long, super long response cycle versus postcards, which usually drive a quick response and then it drops off really quickly. So this catalog format was a huge breakthrough. Now it was more expensive than a postcard, of course, but from a cost per sale perspective, it was much cheaper because of it was driving so much higher response. So that’s the kind of thing that clients get excited about when they realize like, oh wow, you know, it’s more expensive, but we’re it’s justified.

It’s justified in the results.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 18:28

So yeah, we’re looking by the way, if anyone’s watching the video here or if you’re listening to the audio, we see there is a page on on Rick’s website here. And I’m just in the work page and I like to poke around to see this and it’s like, it’s pretty amazing. You’re over 1.5. Yeah. The AT&T 1.5 billion pieces of direct response marketing just in this one campaign.

That’s pretty wild.

Rick Rappe: 18:56

Well, that was ten years of my life. I understand working for AT&T, and I counted up the the pieces of mail that I sent. But we do you want me to talk about that?

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 19:05

Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.

Rick Rappe: 19:08

Well, as a young person, I was able to work at a big agency, and one of the accounts that I started working on was the AT&T program in the southwest region. So my clients were in Dallas, Texas, and we were doing direct mail for just that southwest region. And then AT&T recognized that the results that we were getting were astronomically higher than all the other regions were getting. So we became the national AT&T sales channel and scaled that channel up to a massive size. So I was managing a direct marketing budget for AT&T of about $100 million a year.

And was able to manage a program where we were mailing every single day. For AT&T and did that kept that program growing for over ten years. So that was a very, very successful program. And it became like I would say, probably driving 20 to 25% of AT&T total sales was from direct mail back then. So it was a great learning experience that that was probably that was that was obviously a really fantastic learning experience for me to be able to use that much, have that much budget and test and measure and do anything that I wanted in the course of things.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 20:32

I’d love to hear and we’ll talk about. There’s some guiding principles that you took from, you know, this AT&T that obviously you bring into RPM. But I do want to talk about what has surprised you either on the good or bad side. Like to me it seems a little counterintuitive maybe to, okay, we’re going to send a bulkier, bigger catalog and get better response. Right?

Or what have you been surprised with like, oh, you’re like, I think this may work, but may probably not. And it really worked. Or and or on the flip side, oh, this is going to kill it. And then crickets. What surprised.

Rick Rappe: 21:13

That’s a good question. You’re going to make me feel figure out what my biggest failure was exactly. I can tell you some of the success I’m going to focus on the first part of your question, the successful things. We like to develop formats that have little interactive elements. So like instead of a self mailer that folds together perfectly, we’ll have like one panel that’s off and has kind of a reveal edge.

That little that little tweak makes it kind of easier to open and also makes it more interactive. And those things can really help response or like a zip strip, something that’s die cut so that when you pull it, it goes and opens up, you know, and that.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 21:58

Kind of satisfaction to that.

Rick Rappe: 21:59

Yeah, there’s sort of like they demand that you, that you pull them or we recently got a really significant lift in performance for one of our largest clients with a embossed paper stock on the envelope and kind of a die cut shape that hangs out on the back side of the envelope, which is really interesting. But these little sort of unusual things stand out and demand that people, you know, pay more attention and interact with the piece. But yeah, I think scratch offs and like pop out, pop out panels and zip strips and reveals and little tabs that, you know, those types of things can, can really help. So we we definitely spend a lot of time mailing the standard formats that you would see in direct mail, but a lot of times we take those and we kind of improve upon the basics.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 23:01

As you’re thinking of some that you were overconfident about, it didn’t work. I would love to talk. So think on that for a second. I do want to hear that, but I do love hearing the interaction piece. Like to think about how do people improve what they’re doing.

I mean, this goes with with anything, even with that same method applies with social media or anything, right? Like just getting interaction. I know if I got something that was kind of like off, I’d want to rip it open because I wanted to like line it up, you know, like my my mind. So. it’s like psychologically interesting to hear that.

So before you talk about maybe what you were overconfident about, but the the outside of an envelope, right. What are some of the things that maybe should and shouldn’t on the outside? Because I know, you know, there’s an A pile, B pile and C pile. And like if I look at it, it may go right in the garbage. Right.

And so people, no matter how good the inside is, if the outside is bad, I’m not looking or, you know, people aren’t looking at it. Right.

Rick Rappe: 24:11

If you know about the A, B and C pile, you know a lot more than most people know about direct mail. You’re talking about the way that people sort their mail when they come in from the mailbox. And the post office has studied this extensively, right? So people do the first sort where they put junk mail in one pile, promotional, obviously promotional mail, and then they’ll put, you know, personal bills and official mail in another pile, and they’ll put like personal correspondence, greeting cards, those types of things, and personal letters in a third pile. And that’s, you know, obviously everybody does it a little differently.

But yeah, that’s that’s good that, you know, that that’s interesting. As far as the what what on the envelope works.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 24:56

Yeah.

Rick Rappe: 24:57

Like how do you get.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 24:57

Your stuff into the B and a file. Right.

Rick Rappe: 25:00

Like yeah. Yeah. Well promotional envelopes can work with the offer right on the outer envelope. That’s okay sometimes. And it certainly is something that we do and it performs in certain instances and for certain clients, certain offers.

We use that approach in internet and cable quite a lot. Other clients, for example, like the home warranty client that you mentioned, we do much more official mail for them, things that get into the pile that you know, where the initial reaction is, sort of, what the heck is this? You know, like it’s something official. I got to open this to figure it out and find out more. So that is a much more effective approach for a lot of clients.

That official or stealth approach, we call it where it’s just not there’s nothing on the outside that that even for the AT&T program that I mentioned where we were essentially giving away, you know, free phones, we were using oftentimes a stealth envelope, a blind, stealthy envelope was like our top performing control package for many, many years.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 26:08

So when you say stealth, just describe it. I think there’s no like return address. Like talk about the outside, what that looks like for people so they can visualize it.

Rick Rappe: 26:18

Yeah, a stealth envelope would be something that’s. Yeah. Like doesn’t really say it doesn’t have a brand on it. It’s it’s like got a return address only and it might have a stamp on it so that it looks like, you know, you can’t necessarily tell that it’s Direct mail us or as easily tell it’s direct mail us and no copy on the outer on the outer envelope at all. So that’s a top performer for a lot of clients out there.

I mean, if you study direct mail, it’s it’s very widely used.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 26:50

Have you found people Rick, using any handwritten technology with outside because like when I think of getting in the A pile right. It’s like almost like a handwritten address thing. And maybe that gets into the AI conversation.

Rick Rappe: 27:07

We.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 27:08

Were talking about before we hit record of like, how is, you know, AI changing direct mail, but talk about that for a second.

Rick Rappe: 27:16

Handwritten direct mail has been around for a very long time. Believe it or not, it’s not anything new, but it’s definitely something that works. And, you know, we use sometimes handwritten elements in the direct mail piece where you like on a letter, you might circle the offer and have little call outs in the margin. Those types of things can work really well. But in a handwritten envelope is we can obviously now we can kind of mimic the look of a hand handwritten font.

But there’s actually companies out there that use pens and have computers that will handwrite. And there’s even ways that you can actually have people do the handwriting and actually write the address block of your letters. So there’s a wide variety of ways you can do that. But yeah, we we do a lot of packages. We have done a lot of packages that look like greeting cards, and they’re very convincing.

And that’s one of the that’s one of the ways to make the greeting card package work is to make sure that on the outside it is very convincing.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 28:18

So we’ll talk about how I some of the stuff on AI and how AI is changing direct marketing, but I still want to go back to anything that you thought was going to work really well and and didn’t.

Rick Rappe: 28:31

Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 28:31

Because like, I’ve gotten, you know, ten different copywriters response marketers in a room talking and it doesn’t, you know, even the best ones in the world will not they’ll they think it’s going to work and it doesn’t for whatever reason. Maybe it’s a list. Maybe it’s what the what was sent, I don’t know. So what what was on your list of like, this is definitely going to work and then maybe just didn’t work like you thought.

Rick Rappe: 29:01

I think I’ve had a few clients that have led me down a path towards the idea of using sort of life stage data and, and segmentation model data, which would be like a prism codes or. Something that tells that that segments the population into different types of people. And then saying based on that segmentation model, we’re going to personalize like the images and the copy to fit that segment.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 29:33

Like if you said it’s a.

Rick Rappe: 29:34

Personalization.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 29:35

Like a Hispanic community or whatever, and that maybe the creative would be more like the pictures of people that look like them or are Caucasian or whatever it is, that kind of thing.

Rick Rappe: 29:47

Yeah. Or it might say that we have one segment that’s like retired, elderly, retired versus young up and comers. And we’re going to customize the images for elderly retired and young up and comers. And we’re going to kind of try to personalize the packages for these two groups. And that in theory sounds good.

And it works. It sounds like it’s going to work, but it’s just really hard to execute against all the different possible, you know, versions that you would have to create. So it ends up being a very expensive idea to pursue and to execute on. And then it doesn’t. It almost never pays off in the results.

It’s it’s not justified. It doesn’t create enough of a lift to pay for the amount of extra money that is needed to to pull it off.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 30:38

Especially if it’s, I guess, more like a wide stream product as opposed to like there’s probably products that cater only to like, I’m just thinking of like hearing aids or something, like you’re not sending it to like an up and comer. So like literally all the lists are this, these people. So it’s speaking directly to just one.

Rick Rappe: 30:56

Yeah. If we know about the if we have a target, a specific target market for hearing aids or something like that, for example. Yeah, we’re definitely going to talk to that market and customize things to that market. No, this is more of a where people want to get into a segmented approach and start personalizing the mailing for different segments on a product that is more, you know, for a little bit more for everybody. So there’s ways to do it in a light way where it can I think it can help, but I’ve just had some clients that took it, took the idea and really pushed it.

Tried to push it too far.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 31:33

Yeah. So talk about AI and how AI is changing direct marketing, if at all.

Rick Rappe: 31:43

Yeah, well, I think obviously we’re able to use things like ChatGPT and Claude to develop creative and to to write copy. And that’s been an interesting resource. And we’re certainly utilizing that. You know, in conjunction with our copywriters who have years and years of experience in direct mail and direct marketing, but it’s just a great way to generate ideas really quickly. So that has been something that we’re embracing and and continuing to work with.

The other thing that I think is really exciting about AI is just it’s created a lot more speed in terms of doing things like predictive modeling and predictive analytics. So. used to take us a month to create a predictive model, and we would have to have a team of statisticians working for that period of time to create a really effective predictive model. And it wasn’t very accessible unless you had a big, big client like AT&T or, you know, somebody that size. So now it’s much more accessible for everyone.

And we can create a very, very effective predictive model in a matter of minutes with AI. So that’s that’s pretty exciting. We we actually did a test where we let the statisticians create a model. And we had I created.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 33:07

Of course, you did a test.

Rick Rappe: 33:09

In and we created a model with AI in 15 minutes. And we tested the two against each other. We made 100,000 pieces of each one. And the AI created predictive model did two times the performance of the one that was created by humans. So it’s very interesting now.

There could have been a few other things that contributed to that, but it was just the speed advantage is really compelling. Obviously.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 33:36

I expect nothing less than you testing those things.

Rick Rappe: 33:41

That’s the only way you know for sure is to test what’s the.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 33:45

So talk about some of the guiding principles that you took from, you know, running the AT&T campaigns.

Rick Rappe: 33:53

Yeah. Well, I think the first one we’ve kind of touched on already, which is that we have to be able to test and crack the code very quickly. And even before we have to get into a test, I should mention one of the most important guiding principles is establish a clear objective and make sure that the metric that you need to hit is very clearly defined. It cost per sale is a very good metric to use in direct mail. That’s a that one obviously includes performance metrics, but it also includes the cost metrics.

So I’m a big, big advocate for that. And I think some of the other guiding principles that I out of out of my AT&T days. Were, you know, to really develop a channel building multiple program kind of strategy. So understand this is what we’re going to do at this stage. And then the next stage we’re going.

To do this and the next stage we’re going to do this. And it you know there’s a there’s a process to. Building a channel. Staying in the mail consistently is a very important guiding principle, especially if you’re working with a sales force and you’re integrating with a sales organization, continuing to maintain that steady lead flow so that they learn to work the leads and convert the leads effectively is really important. And the other thing I was going to mention is just managing risk.

We obviously once we have a winning package, we want to make sure that we protect that and stick with it and don’t tweak it and don’t break it. But we also want to take. So 80% of our mind is saying don’t mess with the control package. It works. 20% of our effort though can be what else should we test?

And continued testing. And we keep testing against the control to try and beat it, because we do know that the control eventually will fatigue. And once if you run into market fatigue, you have to have something else that will replace it. And so you want to be testing to find out what to figure out. What’s next, I guess you’d say.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 36:07

Yeah, I love it.

Rick Rappe: 36:08

Those are some of the big ones.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 36:09

Clear, objective, test channel building strategies have that kind of plan and consistency and then just managing the risk. Yeah.

Rick Rappe: 36:18

Well and I would say if anybody that’s listening is really interested in my guiding principles from AT&T. Send me an email at Rick at Com and I’ll, I’ll send you an email with the guiding principles.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 36:34

Cool. So you’re super successful in at AT&T right. They moved everything to what you were doing with direct mail and the company. Why leave then?

Rick Rappe: 36:53

Well, I did that for ten years, and I had a big team of people working for me at the, at this large agency. And I just got really fed up with corporate life, I guess you could say. And the struggles of working at a big agency caught up with me. And I finally just said, you know, enough’s enough. I need to I need to venture out on my own.

And I think I was I was struggling with some of the problems that you face in a big agency. Which is lots of bureaucracy. Agencies end up having a lot of junior level people that are managed by, you know, more senior people. And so you that can be a struggle and difficult at times. And it’s not really very great for serving clients needs.

So I just decided that it was time for me to venture out on my own. And I really wanted to start an agency that was smaller and more nimble and better, better suited to to meeting clients needs. And I think I was able to build RPM with that in mind. So that’s what that’s what we’ve done.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 38:03

For you now, Rick. Obviously not everyone has $100 million a year budget. What other type of clients do you work with?

Rick Rappe: 38:13

Yeah, we work with regional companies, internet and cable companies. Sometimes, you know, home warranty companies, different home services companies will come to us and they may not be national brands that you would recognize, but they’re, you know, regionally focused and big enough to have a a need for direct mail and the desire to do it, you know, really effectively. And that’s where we we really come alongside their marketing team and become a really good resource because I think, like you said, you know, you said your goal is to make it easy for your clients. And that’s the same with us. We want to make it easy for our clients to build direct mail into a really highly successful channel.

So.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 39:01

Is there any.

Rick Rappe: 39:01

Did I answer your question?

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 39:02

Yeah. Is there any new things in direct marketing that you want to talk about? One of the things I like about direct marketing, too, is like they’re not changing the algorithm, like, you know, like people are advertising on Facebook and like the stuff changes. And just with the mail, I find it’s reliable. Like you said in the mail.

Right? It shows up maybe even less crowded these days, to be honest with you, but yeah. Is there anything new that that you have found that you want to talk about?

Rick Rappe: 39:41

Well, there’s a there’s a lot of exciting things that we can do with direct mail plus other things together, integrations with digital marketing. So we can obviously integrate and and do. For example, we can do predictive lookalike modeling. So we’re finding we’re looking at your customers and creating that lookalike model that finds all the other people that look just like them or behave just like them. We hope.

And then we can target them with direct mail, but we can also target them with TV, radio, digital display at the same exact time. And so we can actually find their devices in their household and kind of create a symphony effect where everything’s landing at the same time. That’s obviously a powerful tactic and can be really effective. It’s one of those things where you also have to be aware of, like how much does it cost? Because it can be it sounds great.

It sometimes isn’t as great as it sounds because of it’s it’s it’s expensive, but you’re maximizing your sales by doing all that at the same time. What else is new? I think there’s a lot of innovation right now in in terms of how things are being produced. So there’s a lot more that we can do with high speed digital color personalization. There’s things like that that are just changing and making mail more cost effective and bringing the cost down, or at least keeping the cost the same in an inflationary situation.

So those are some of the things that I that come to mind. I wish I, I wish I could.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 41:23

Think of target of like, you know, TV, radio, digital is that basically are they having, having to interact with the direct mail first or, you know, like like are they snapping a QR code? Like, how does it work. How does how are you doing that.

Rick Rappe: 41:39

In that particular in the in that case we can target without really them having to do anything. So before they’ve responded we can we can hit them right. Leading into when they’re going to get the direct mail piece with digital impressions and TV impressions and radio impressions. And then even right after they hit the mail. So it’s kind of like hitting all at the same time.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 42:01

It’s really a multi-channel approach.

Rick Rappe: 42:03

Multi-channel, omnichannel, without them even.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 42:06

Having to take an action.

Rick Rappe: 42:08

Right? Right. But oftentimes what you were saying with QR codes, I mean, there’s lots of ways to integrate direct mail with digital as a response channel as well. Obviously, we use QR codes on a lot of things. Use URLs to drive to web pages.

And you know, sometimes we even integrate, you know, video into a direct mail piece through use of a QR code. We can even buy a particular format of direct mail that has a screen and includes a video in the direct mail piece itself. That one’s pretty slick, and that’s that’s something that we would like to do more of. It’s it’s very interesting.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 42:52

First of all, I have one last question. And more along. Just mentors of yours through your business career could be colleagues, mentors and what you’ve learned. But I do want to just point people. If you’ve been seeing the video.

If you haven’t, you can check out rpmdm.com to learn more about Rick in the company and to check out the work they’ve done and some of the the methodology that we’ve been talking about. And since, you know, we’re both a part of EO, I always like to ask, you know, mentors and some maybe lessons you learned from some of those business mentors.

Rick Rappe: 43:33

Yeah. Well, in the in the direct mail world, I worked at an agency for a period of time called the Current Organization, and I worked with the the founder, Russell Kern. And I would say he’s been a mentor of mine. I’m excited because I’m actually going to have him as a guest on my podcast, and he’s a leadership consultant now because he was very successful at the current organization, and he is sold that company to a bigger, you know, New York holding company. And so I’m excited to talk with him as he’s one of my my mentors, for sure.

And I think he literally wrote a textbook about direct marketing.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 44:12

So I’ll have to look it up. How do you spell his last name?

Rick Rappe: 44:17

K e r n.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 44:18

Okay, cool. Russell? Yeah.

Rick Rappe: 44:20

Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 44:22

And then it could be distant mentors, too. I know you read a lot or listen to a lot of of books or podcasts. What are some of the resources you encourage people to check out that you love?

Rick Rappe: 44:38

Well, obviously I, I would say people like Bob hacker, Denny Hatch. Dan Kennedy, these are some of the some of the gurus of direct marketing that I have studied and, and pay paid a lot of attention to over the years.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 44:58

Yeah, I remember I think he sold the company, but Danny Hatch had what runs where what was it called? Do you know where he would send you? What’s been running and how long?

Rick Rappe: 45:09

Who’s doing what I think is, yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 45:11

Who’s mailing what exactly? Yeah, totally. Love that. I love you know, I definitely love the Dan Kennedy stuff as well. Rick, thanks for sharing your journey.

It’s been pretty crazy. Who would have thought when you started working that you’d be like just running the AT&T and then parlaying that into helping others really be successful with direct mail so people can check out rpmdm.com to learn more. And also you can check it out. Check it out.

Rick’s podcast, when you go on his page and you’ll see some legends on there that he’ll have on and they’ll talk shop. So I’m looking forward to seeing those as well. Rick. And thanks everyone. And Rick, thanks so much.

Rick Rappe: 45:56

Thank you.

Outro: 45:57

Thanks for listening to the Rising Entrepreneurs Podcast. This episode is powered by Rise25. Please subscribe and check out future episodes.

Why Direct Mail Still Works (And How To Do It Right) With Rick Rappe

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

In this episode…

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Quotable Moments

Action Steps

Sponsor for this episode…

#1 Our Predictable Podcast ROI Program

#2 Our Comprehensive Corporate Gifting Program

Episode Transcript:

Subscribe to our newsletter